+- +-

+-User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 

Login with your social network

Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 65
Latest: Triptiagycle
New This Month: 0
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 1979
Total Topics: 176
Most Online Today: 4
Most Online Ever: 1890
(September 16, 2022, 11:19:15 pm)
Users Online
Members: 0
Guests: 5
Total: 5

Author Topic: Mirror Neurons and writer centipede.  (Read 273 times)

Crackhead Johny

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
  • Newcomer
    • View Profile
Mirror Neurons and writer centipede.
« on: January 07, 2016, 03:04:25 pm »
Writer centipede one way we get terrible TV.
Like human centipede, Hollywood (and other) writers tend to just take other peoples stuff and slap it in their stuff. For example: you will see the main male character and female character fighting and then they make out and have sex. When you see that happen in a show your first thought should be "Oh god, please don't go there again" but then after that you have to ask how many writers this idea passed through, before the current TV show tried to get you to eat it. Was Shakespeare's Taming of the Shrew where this idea first popped up? Was it from older Greek plays? Either way that "angry > making out" thing has been ripped off a lot over the centuries.
There are so many other ideas and mechanisms that pop up in TV that are cliche's and tropes. In both cases if you are using them, what you are doing is using someone else's work, it is lazy and plagiarism. Just because an idea has been stolen so many time people cannot say where it was first created, doesn't mean if you use it you are not also stealing it. Just because someone else stole it doesn't make it OK for you to (two wrongs blah blah).
If you ideas are on TV tropes and have a bazillion citations.. uh oh. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/SoYouWantTo/WriteAShonenSeries

Well, the how does this happen?
Mirror neurons is the answer. These are created as you watch something happen and are responsible for "monkey see, monkey do". What this means is that when you come to any given point in a story, you are likely to replicate something you have already seen for what happens after that point.  What is the point of mirror neurons? All life is lazy, it is better to learn something from watching someone or something else do it than to spend calories figuring it out yourself. This is also there reason that people are most comfortable feeling about things rather than thinking about things, it is also what people are more comfortable not paying attention and answering things with rote knowledge. Paying attention and thinking requires more calories than feeling as rote learning and so is risky on an evolutionary level. As a species you only need a few thinkers who will provide rote learning to the rest. (At his point some of you who have turned to the dark side are saying "So for most people I can just pack a story full of emotional triggers and they will think 'This is great!'".. bad Jedi, no biscuit! Don't have those thoughts.)

OK so how do I deal with this?
Bad news: you will not be able to avoid it. Or at least will have a really hard time avoiding it.
What you can do is know that this will happen and watch out for when your brain tries to do it. Also learn as much about everything as possible, then have many people proof your stuff, to see if they catch stuff you didn't.
For characters it really helps if you can be very social, talk to everyone, have deep conversations and get to know them. Learn some psych, learn social engineering so you know how people work and you can make tangible characters and not card board cutouts. Also taking things from real live means they usually to not trace straight back to TV eps everyone has seen.

When it does happen, can you mask it? Take the cliche and mix it up until people do not spot it or for fun take it 180 degrees from where it always goes. Distract the reader so they do not notice what the other hand is doing.
Most of all, never tell yourself that your story is great (OMG, this is going to be awesome!). Ask what is wrong with it, dig for the wrongness and fix that, then dig for more. When you run out of wrong then have others dig. This is how science and good writing work. When no one can come up with wrong, you have a story that is lacking wrong and is hopefully enjoyable to boot.

If you do this all well, hopefully you will always be able to earn suspension of disbelief and maintain a hold on it.

What if I can't get my brain to do this or it is more effort than I want to spend? Then you have a bright future as a Hollywood writer. We shall await your next episode of Star Trek or The Flash. Just grab your bottle of paste (do not eat any of it, no matter how good it is. you do not want the other Hollywood writers calling you "paste eater") and some construction paper and make a collage of cliche's around your cardboard cut out characters.

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


J_Draws

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Ayy Lamao
    • View Profile
Re: Mirror Neurons and writer centipede.
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2016, 05:18:11 pm »
Psychologist here, you misunderstand mirror-neurons.
I'm going to abbreviate them as MN's.

MN's are a class of visuomotor neuron that will fire as a result of both activity from individual activity and observation of same/similar acts performed by other individuals. Activity in this sense would be something simple, like grasp food with the hand. (MN's are the bee's knees because they allows us to create a potential link from the observation of others with our own motor system.) Basically though, they are regulated by action specificity, or goal-orientated action. When the research talks about this, it's talking about simple actions (such as to grasp with the hand), not ideas for stories, etc. They are motor-based, and are used to show how we understand movement.

The closest you can get with Mirror Neurons and your idea is associative learning, which isn't really about what you discussed. Sorry :P

You may be interested in instead reading about memory bias, Cryptomesia comes to mind, which is inadvertent plagiarism.

Lumaria

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
  • Reviewer
    • View Profile
Re: Mirror Neurons and writer centipede.
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2016, 09:15:49 pm »
I think its good to talk with your characters. in a sense, i've always done this and felt so natural. But it started by feeling characters that regardless if i thought were great or not, i can see them real people.

Sometimes when people do this, and i see examples of this, i tend to see typical discussions set up for the character rather than seeing a character have a real character.

Crackhead Johny

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
  • Newcomer
    • View Profile
Re: Mirror Neurons and writer centipede.
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2016, 09:26:24 am »
Thanks for the correction.  I didn't get the physical only part from the bathroom book (Liars and outliers). If it is physical only some of that book doesn't work.

So the big issues is that these days the TV is the member of the family that everyone listens to and TV is always right so they tend to replicate what they have already seen?  That is the cause of writer centipede? Or does it go back further to Before TV you would see the story teller problem which goes back as far as story telling? Life is lazy and it is easier to retell a popular story than it is to make a whole fresh new popular story?

So MN are not responsible for wiring? AKA when someone has their first kid of grand kid and their behavior and personality completely change?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 09:33:12 am by Crackhead Johny »

J_Draws

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • Ayy Lamao
    • View Profile
Re: Mirror Neurons and writer centipede.
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2016, 11:25:57 pm »
Again, MN's are quite a new subject (around 20 or so years) and they're not fully understood. There's quite a few things we think they do. Generally though, i think it's safe to say that they're not responsible for our behaviour/or passing down behaviour, they're responsible for linking motor action and perceptual representation.

There's a nice minireview that goes over some of the research done in the last 20 or so years that's quite a light and nice read, called 'What we currently know about Mirror Neurons' done by Kilner & Lemon. Or Wikipedia might be useful, but it also seems to touch on other Psych theories like ToM, Autism and the likes. Not sure if Wiki would be too much of an overload, since it sounds like you've not read anything on them.

I'm not really sure what you're meaning by 'wiring', generally when i think of wiring i think of white matter since it's generally used to connect areas of the brain to each other.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2016, 12:43:29 am by TheSlamJam »

Crackhead Johny

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
  • Newcomer
    • View Profile
Re: Mirror Neurons and writer centipede.
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2016, 11:54:41 pm »
I'm not really sure what you're meaning by 'wiring', generally when i think of wiring i think of white matter since it's generally used to connect areas of the brain to each other.
When major life events happen most people "click" as wiring kicks in. For example you have your first kid and forget what being a kid was like. Your first grand kid gets born and click.

It is a form of letting autopilot do it. Something all life forms tend to do. Nature vs nurture gets to be a more difficult call when it comes to wiring (for nurture conditioning/education/reeducation/etc may be a more preferred term)
The level to which wiring decides human behavior along with brief readings had me confusing how MNs worked.

 

+-Recent Topics

Triptiagycle by Triptiagycle
March 09, 2024, 11:28:13 pm

It can be used to plan your trip by ragini95324
December 17, 2023, 04:15:46 am

巴马总统评为百强企业家在岁 by Aklima Khatun
December 17, 2023, 12:55:22 am

在上发布了的更新 by Bappy Bappy
October 18, 2023, 02:57:23 am

We'll also see the removal of expand by Sabbir Hossain
September 16, 2023, 05:17:11 am

Provide an opportunity to start communicating with the manager by Rasel Rasel
September 16, 2023, 03:33:41 am

When one of my clients has done this by Md Raihan
September 12, 2023, 05:29:02 am

Your store's navigation is confusing by Md Mahfuz
September 12, 2023, 05:19:11 am

Capturing reality from new perspectives by anno rani
September 10, 2023, 06:43:26 am

The main advantage of adopting by Arfan hossen
September 10, 2023, 04:52:38 am