Refi
+- +-

+-User

Welcome, Guest.
Please login or register.
 
 
 
Forgot your password?

+-Stats ezBlock

Members
Total Members: 40
Latest: divyarai
New This Month: 0
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 2158
Total Topics: 152
Most Online Today: 0
Most Online Ever: 9
(April 05, 2017, 04:46:45 am)
Users Online
Members: 0
Guests: 1
Total: 1

Author Topic: Mandatory Chit Chat Thread (For the crickets out there !)  (Read 1982 times)

Lumaria

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
  • Reviewer
    • View Profile
You actually consider kinetic art functional? That's funny. I see we have very different philosophies on function. I can't do anything with a kinetic sculpture. Movement is not a function. What you're referring to is an "Action". An action and a function are two different things. I'm going to keep using that phrase different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy. If you want an agreement, you have to first accept why our opinions are different.

Of course we have different opinions. but i don't want to hear excuses as to why theres a large gap in the story telling process. The problem isn't that we want two different things. I just want good story telling.

Quote
Did you honestly think I go to art school and never thought about kinetic art. You had to have been drawing at straws. I spent  hours trying to figure out how you can fit architecture into that description, and you bring up kinetic art. Because for instance in art history, they usually pay attention to architecture as well as religious art which seems very functional. And there's a reason why it still works, but I'm not going to get into that.
Based on the anime art i've seen, the lack of real-world proportions integrated into them, i wouldn't have imagined you were in art school. If you were in the art school i was in, they would've asked you to stop drawing anime altogether and focus on proportions and realism. And for good reason as it would get in the way of learning proper proportions and form. Its not that my art school wants me to quit altogether, but most people use it as a crutch.

You better find a better definition for art then, because function exists within art. it may not be the core, but its there.

Quote
Commercial art has a function. And that function is to be pleasing to the consumer. It has nothing to do with it being representational, it has nothing to do with color, or line in isolation, it has to do with the consumer. The consumer is in complete control of the illustration being made. That is not art. That is business.
You mean the client. The client has complete control of the illustration. And if they did, they wouldn't hire an artist to do it. And it is intended to be pleasing to the consumer. That is for sure. But don't understimate how much work and skill that actually takes.

There is art in business. Its just a compromise. and that's what I've been trying to highlight to you. You can't treat it like deviantart where you can be selfish and just say its for you and you alone when it comes to storytelling. You have to make compromises in order to grow and understand what it means to make good art/story.

story telling has a function too.

Quote
If you asked me what is my artwork supposed to make you feel. It would be stupid to answer that. Answering that only serves to belittle the effectiveness of it. What art makes you feel is personal to you.

This is why you're not progressing when it comes to story telling. Story telling without trying to engage with your audience and just making them accept whatever group of words. I'm going to tell you again: Stop treating story telling like visual art. Its not the same thing.

it requires more thought into the audience.

Quote
Again philosophical disagreement. Kinetic art is not functional. An action is not a function. At least to me, it's not. That's my philosophy. Maybe that's not your philosophy, it doesn't actually matter to me. You could say its function is to move, but the movement that takes place is artistic because it could make any movement. Why does it move the way it does if it could move any way it wanted? Why does a painting look the way it does if it could look like anything it wanted? That is art.
you're just contradicting yourself.

Quote
This actually isn't an argument. This is a discussion. You are the one who refuses to discuss. I simply stated, that we disagree. I stated what I believe and then you argued against it. If you don't want to argue, stop arguing and start discussing.
i don't want to hear that we have differences in philosophies as to why you're not progressing or that we want different things out of your story. That throws out all the valid critique on your stories.

Its not a matter of "I want this" and "you want that". In the end, the goal is to write objectively better.  Like i said, i'm never going to force you to write a character with qualities i enjoy. BUT i will ask that characters meet the criteria for good story-telling.

Characters need to have personalities, flaws, quirks, redeeming qualities, goals. etc. And if your story progresses through characters, then you have to explore those things as soon as possible. Otherwise, why continue reading?

Quote
"What is your story suppose to make me feel when i read it?" And you simply could not answer it.

This is one of those things where I felt answering the question would be considered an argument. Obviously I was correct because you refuse to have a discussion.
So i'm going to say this: if you can't answer this question, that is the reason you've never been able to progress. You never tried to control the audiences feelings and thoughts through story telling.

I gain so much satisfaction when someone gives me a review of my story and feel or have an opinion on my characters and it ends up being exactly what i wanted to achieve. It tells me the reader is connecting to the story the way i wanted and they see it the way i wanted it to be told.

I aim to do that at a scene by scene basis. Each scene has purpose not just for the goals i want to achieve in the story but also for the audience. They have to gain some satisfaction, some thought or opinion or feeling out each scene. It can't be at a chapter by chapter basis. And you notice this with manga and anime how the art changes slightly when they want to make you laugh, and go back to detailed when they want you to focus on the story.

Quote
My perspective on characters and storytelling in general has actually changed since the time I wrote FNO, but for me it was important that the character plays his role. I was always looking at the story as a whole. You were looking at the details. I think over time I could have gone back and fixed some of the elements and details that were distracting.

No. i wasn't looking at the "Details". i was looking at what's missing in your story. What you fail to execute. What you just don't do.

In FNO, your characters just "existed". There were story-like events that emulate a story, but there was a huge disconnect between me and the story. these characters did nothing to highlight who they were. They were just there, they had no real human qualities. Its like trying to turn a couple in a restaurant you see from a distance into a story.

Quote
There were some characters whose role was to have a personality. Their role in the story revolved entirely around how it would feel to interact with them. We can continue to compare FNO to art here it'd be as if I drew Tara from FNO and one arm was too small. Even if it was intentional, the statement the piece was making had nothing to do with proportion or arms or anything, the arm could be regualar sized, and the statement would be the same, right. I'm still speaking Hypothetically here, in the art world we could call that small arm "distracting". The arm is completely distracting from the actual message of the piece and should be changed.


You also have to stop comparing story-telling to visuals. Art can be completed on a single canvas. Story telling can't always be done that way. Each chapter is posted separately, and i review each individual chapter as if it was a manga that you want to pursue.

Tara, was not human. Tara by the things she said, by the things she did. Had no values. SHe had no personality. She didn't feel real. She felt like something only meant for you to manipulate and create

Quote
That's a similar problem with Tara and FNO or Blade Regalia, is that the poor elements of the story are distracting you. The story's message doesn't revolve around Tara's personality, but the fact that she didn't have one, was distracting. And that should be fixed. If the story were making a statement on personality, or the abstract personalities as a whole were in of themselves making a statement, then that would make more sense from an artistic point of view.
Its more than just distracting. Its the fact that she had no personality meant you really didn't think deeply into what your audience should feel. (i'm sounding repetitious on purpose because you have to acknowledge these aspects)


Quote
Blade Regalia did create some challenges for me because it was a commercial work, however. The story was going to be illustrated or animated and free to view even without having bought the game. It was purely a service to the gamers, not as a commercial venture. The game itself, was not story driven. It's multiplayer. That being the case I wanted to pursue it as some kind of median between artistic and commercial venture.

What has changed is now the game is also story driven, and that's lead me to make some changes. So now it's much more commercial than artistic. I still love it. I love seeing what it's becoming. I agree that's definitely a mistake not to explore the world or to explore who Katherine is because even within the game the world is very expansive lore wise. It begs you to learn more about it. You do have different cultures and different races and the different Regalia depending on it and it's really fun to explore now. I agree there were missteps there.
This is the compromise i'm talking about. Just because its not what you originally envisioned or had to make compromises, doesn't mean you stop calling it art.

Quote
You're not Real probably has a lot of potential just by the name. But the story itself is not good. The protagonist is based on a character from Blade Regalia by the same name who actually is a sociopath. But in Blade Regalia he's an antagonist.
This was a problem. You can't just switch out a role and put it on that character's perspective and assume people will relate or connect with the character. So why do people want to follow a sociopath in a story? Theres no redeeming quality. At that point, we're just seeing a sociopath be a sociopath. It doesn't service the audience.

It invoked a feeling alright, and that was to be annoyed as heck. But my goal in writing is to make sure its pleasing the reader enough to move onto the next chapter. So if your character was so annoying i couldn't read it anymore.

Quote
The story didn't really say anything either. I thought it would be interesting to push the idea that "love didn't exist" or that love was specifically the "You" the title is referring to, but the protagonist was poorly executed. Now I can look at it and see some things that would've made it work a lot better. If the protagonist's struggles seemed more unfair, then it might have been more interesting, but I didn't like the protagonist either.  I didn't know how to fix him. You gave me solutions, but they wouldn't solve the bigger problem so I abandoned it. I would basically just have to torture the protagonist
So this is where story telling is different. We're creating essentially real people. And the goal is that these characters are believable. And if we want to achieve something out of them, we have to manipulate their surroundings to fit that purpose.

« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 03:32:50 am by Lumaria »

Tara

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Gawvi get em
    • View Profile
I'm sorry that was actually my mistake entirely. I thought I had posted more of my work from on campus here, but I actually didn't There were very few pieces in my gallery. None of my assignments have been anime styled. You are absolutely correct, they would destroy you for that. It actually wasn't until very recently that I was even allowed to draw people. So my mistake for assuming you knew something that I never actually told or showed you.

Function exists within art, yes. A painting's function is to be seen. It has a function. I agree. But what is artistic is what's done beyond that function. As I a said the "non-functional aspects". I did not say "art is an object that doesn't perform ANY function". Art is the aspects of an object that are not pertaining to its function. There is function within objects, but not in art. Art is not just an object.

"You mean the client. The client has complete control of the illustration. And if they did, they wouldn't hire an artist to do it."

So if you're a slave owner. And you have complete control of a slave. You're saying you wouldn't need a slave to do anything if you have control over him? An artist has a skill you need. You pay money, he illustrates in the same way that a painter puts paint on a brush in order to paint. They both want a picture, they both do what they need to do to make it happen.

In a way we could technically say that the client is the artist, and the illustrator is just a medium that the client uses to illustrate. We can call it artistic because the consumer can spend his money on whatever he wants, but the fact that he spends it on that illustration is in of itself making a statement.

Yes, the client doesn't always specify every single little detail about a piece so the artist does have to invent some ideas and that is artistic because it extends past the clients demands into the artist's liberty of choice among a series of choices. Another way to look at art, it is a choice among many choices.

Storytelling's function is to be read or heard. Period. You can ascribe golden rules to story telling if you would like. The consumer can ascribe golden rules to stories he would purchase if he chooses. Commercial storytelling doesn't even follow your golden rules. SAO for instance. Where are Kirito's flaws at? But still a hugely successful product. Different people do have different standards. A lot of people don't pay attention to personality at all. Do I think it's better that characters have a personality? On a personal level, yes I do.

I think the fact that you can't see a correlation between story-telling and illustration is very simple-minded. That's just my opinion. Maybe I think too much about everything.

I like drawing representational art. I like learning to capture someone's likeness and make a picture really feel 3-dimensional. My personal artwork is always pretty conservative, but I can still appreciate abstractions for what they're worth. I like reading what you would call good stories, and I really like reading stories that change my way of thinking. I love it when these two things come together. That's my personal experience.

As of this discussion, perhaps I did in the past because I was prideful, but as of this discussion. I have not once excused any mistake I've made. I have done more to recognize how to fix them than you have. I explained why they happened. But I did not argue that they made the story better.

In the past I've never actually taken it seriously when you'd say I don't put the audience first. Or I don't care about the audience.. That's mostly why you don't feel like you've ever gotten a good answer. I know what Katherine looks like. I know what she acts like and what wants. Why would I draw a picture of her? So that I'll know what I already know? Why would I write about her?

You could say the audience is the only reason she exists, but the reason why I never told you that Tara is supposed to make you feel like she's a victim who isn't blameless is the same reason why artists don't explain their art. I want you to have your own personal experience, or revelation, or emotion, from it. I want Tara to open up a discussion, not simply be a sentence.

I could go back and tell you every single emotion you were meant to feel in FNO and Blade Regalia, and why all those years ago you were meant to feel that way, and I could even tell you why you didn't feel that way. I didn't want to tell you that, because I wanted you to have your own interpretation. Could it have helped us figure out solutions had I told you? Yes. Obviously it could have. I made a mistake. I've made many. I'm used to it.

Lumaria

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
  • Reviewer
    • View Profile
Function exists within art, yes. A painting's function is to be seen. It has a function. I agree. But what is artistic is what's done beyond that function. As I a said the "non-functional aspects". I did not say "art is an object that doesn't perform ANY function". Art is the aspects of an object that are not pertaining to its function. There is function within objects, but not in art. Art is not just an object.
you said non-function in your definition. its too specific and really has no need. you're overexplaining it. Non-function isn't a key factor to art. There are cathedrals and castles that the way they approach function is considered art. Its not worth arguing/discussing and you know it.

The core of art is to invoke feeling/thought. if you focus on that, it really doesn't matter what other things you add onto the definition.

Quote
So if you're a slave owner. And you have complete control of a slave. You're saying you wouldn't need a slave to do anything if you have control over him? An artist has a skill you need. You pay money, he illustrates in the same way that a painter puts paint on a brush in order to paint. They both want a picture, they both do what they need to do to make it happen.

I'm not going to address this poor analogy for obvious reasons.

Quote
In a way we could technically say that the client is the artist, and the illustrator is just a medium that the client uses to illustrate. We can call it artistic because the consumer can spend his money on whatever he wants, but the fact that he spends it on that illustration is in of itself making a statement.
You're right. in a way, you could technically say that....

i could technically say anything i want, just like you. Could you say that and be objectively accurate? No. Explanation below.

Quote
Yes, the client doesn't always specify every single little detail about a piece so the artist does have to invent some ideas and that is artistic because it extends past the clients demands into the artist's liberty of choice among a series of choices. Another way to look at art, it is a choice among many choices.

Depends on the artist and client. the artist still using his mind to create something that correlates with what the client had in mind. Its not the same as creating a mugshot from thought, or at least not always. And for a client its also a bonus for the artist to create something better than what he could've imagined.

The client relies on a commercial artist to help visualize what he can't. Or at least to put ideas into physical form. A client may only have vague ideas and still rely on the artist to execute them. At the end of the day, the client says yes or no if its not close to what the client envisioned, but like i said "depends on the artist and client". the client doesn't always get involved in the process of creating it.  They can ask for key aspects.

Point is you'll have to make compromises in order to grow in both illustrations and story-telling. you're not being slaved off if you choose to go into commercial illustrator or writer.

Quote
Storytelling's function is to be read or heard. Period. You can ascribe golden rules to story telling if you would like. The consumer can ascribe golden rules to stories he would purchase if he chooses. Commercial storytelling doesn't even follow your golden rules. SAO for instance. Where are Kirito's flaws at? But still a hugely successful product. Different people do have different standards. A lot of people don't pay attention to personality at all. Do I think it's better that characters have a personality? On a personal level, yes I do.
No. Not period. The act of being heard/read shares an intention again that correlates with illustration and that is still to invoke thought/feeling.

SAO is more concept than a story. The concept sells more than the story. Kirito as a person isn't important to SAO. Kirito more or less was suppose to function like a typical 1337 gamer, but comes across as the perfect love interest who everyone happens to like him and adore him. For SAO, the story is an excuse to move the concept forward. it doesn't care how good or how bad the story is (unfortunately).

Its important to not bring examples of sucessful bad writing as a way to avoid the golden rules. They're not intentionally giving a bad story, they just overlooked them because they focused on a different aspect. Pointing them out is just as important to improve.

Quote
I think the fact that you can't see a correlation between story-telling and illustration is very simple-minded. That's just my opinion. Maybe I think too much about everything.
No, you're just using our different views as a way to push an extreme (like when you compared commercial art to slaves)

At its core, they share similar goals to provoke thought/opinion/emotion into the one who reads/views it. But just as they are two different mediums, they have two different approaches and foundations. Illustrations can be a whole story packaged in a single canvas and the joy is to interpret the story from paint strokes, color choices, etc. This is where "a picture can say a 1000 words" expression comes in, because the viewer has to now fill in the blanks of whatever story they see in that picture.

Story-telling (and this includes comics and manga that use visuals as well) focus on the actual telling of the story. And to optimize it, the writer/teller focuses on the flow and pacing, the way characters are written, the amount of effort the writer does to immerse you into this fictional world or even non-fictional event. Story-telling is more of a process when you're sharing it. When you share illustrations, its usually in complete form. And even if you share the process of the painting its not the same as telling a completed story.

Here's an analogy to pusht he point across: when you tell an extensive joke, you have to make sure you're presenting the setup in an appealing way so that when you reach the punchline, your audience reach the intended feeling and laugh.

Like i said, story-telling is meant to be told to someone else other than yourself, so you have to take the audience into account. visual medium doesn't have to. it can be completely selfish. its not called illustration-sharing. just illustrations.

Quote
As of this discussion, perhaps I did in the past because I was prideful, but as of this discussion. I have not once excused any mistake I've made. I have done more to recognize how to fix them than you have. I explained why they happened. But I did not argue that they made the story better.
then we shouldn't be arguing about commercial art and how different you see story-telling.

Quote
In the past I've never actually taken it seriously when you'd say I don't put the audience first. Or I don't care about the audience.. That's mostly why you don't feel like you've ever gotten a good answer. I know what Katherine looks like. I know what she acts like and what wants. Why would I draw a picture of her? So that I'll know what I already know? Why would I write about her?

You don't even need to draw her. But just giving basic description of her, helps her easier to imagine. Otherwise, you're relying on the reader to make something up. And that's hard to do when you're just starting out the story at chapter 1. that means we have to imagine the character as we're reading the script. And you can't afford to do that with bad-writing habits.

Novels can get away with this at times by using the flow of the narration gloss over it. but when you share a script, fully intended to be drawn. its not a good idea to leave it out.
Quote
You could say the audience is the only reason she exists, but the reason why I never told you that Tara is supposed to make you feel like she's a victim who isn't blameless is the same reason why artists don't explain their art. I want you to have your own personal experience, or revelation, or emotion, from it. I want Tara to open up a discussion, not simply be a sentence.
we never got far into the story to ever reach any of these ideas (look at previous joke analogy). First few chapters were always flawed to the core, that we couldn't move forward.

The problem wasn't that you never told me Tara was supposed to make me feel like a victim who isn't blameless (which is more of a statement, than an intended feeling). The problem was that Tara was so indistinguishable from the start. Your goal is only to eventually reveal that shows that you didn't think of her like a real character.

And because of that, she was mildly annoying. Never really giving the reader a good idea of what kind of personality she has. Too many melodramatic scenes with no build up to them (once again, the joke analogy i said before). In the end, Tara was annoying. So why would the reader stay for the setup if the setup isn't interesting?

Quote
I could go back and tell you every single emotion you were meant to feel in FNO and Blade Regalia, and why all those years ago you were meant to feel that way, and I could even tell you why you didn't feel that way. I didn't want to tell you that, because I wanted you to have your own interpretation. Could it have helped us figure out solutions had I told you? Yes. Obviously it could have. I made a mistake. I've made many. I'm used to it.

Its good to analize the review. I always aim to focus on certain events where someone tells me "this scenes is soo annoying" and i go back and try to see why they feel the way they feel.

Tara

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Gawvi get em
    • View Profile
You're right it may be pointless to try and change someone's philosophies.

HematoLogMeIn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 255
  • The Carmilla Wannabe | Queen of Lurking in Silence
    • View Profile
lmao this place goes nearly dead for like a year and the next big burst of activity is a bunch of head scratching and picking at someone's brains for answers that don't exist. i love y'all. that isn't sarcasm, btw.

Tara

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 212
  • Gawvi get em
    • View Profile
I actually, very purposefully, tried to breathe life into these forums, and you can see how literally nothing happened during the time that I was gone. I personally don't see the value in trying anymore if there aren't any individuals here that I can have a discussion with.

Orchid

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
NO i hear you. i recently have a couple of individuals looking into the stories provided. so hopefully they'll start soon. I always recommend helping out and recommending the place.

i understand the sentiment though. its tough. for a short while we did have consistent amount of people. Some people just end up disapearing for a while. Honestly, the whole situation with DeAngelus has put me at a loss.

i understand both sides. but i definitely don't agree with the approach. It really takes one review to really throw a way friendships. and thats what really depresses me about it all.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 02:46:06 am by Orchid »

Orchid

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
I modified the rules before.

I thought it was initially implied that the steps to deescalating issues was more direct, but now i see it only appears as a suggestion. So i made the deescalation process mandatory. If anyone has issues with another user, they must follow this process to deescalate.

I also added the rule of no piggy-back riding. If someone wants to make their opinion public in this forum, they cannot do it by proxy of another user. Everyone is accountable for their own opinions and thoughts. Its safer for the proxy member because they can break the rules and not realize it.

Lumaria

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
  • Reviewer
    • View Profile
i'll be posting the chapters very soon. I do like the rules better. And you shouldn't worry about people like that.


Orchid

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
How are the chapters coming alone?

Also I saw your steins gate post. I havent finished the first season yet so that's why I havent posted on it yet.

Lumaria

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 511
  • Reviewer
    • View Profile
my main issue with chapters moving forward is organizing them properly. The setup with the followin gthree episodes is that they feel too stand alone for my comfort and i want them to be more connected and show the pacing progress rather than to alter.

So i'm reviewing them now and see if i can expand on them to add more that makes them feel like they're progressing.

Orchid

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 381
    • View Profile
As soon as you can get them out will be fine. I understand how life is.

I wish I had more time .

 

+-Recent Topics

udaipur escort by divyarai
November 20, 2020, 02:18:51 am

Steamy Jaipur Escort Service for Wonderful Pleasure by divyarai
November 20, 2020, 02:17:54 am

Jaipur Escort Service for Wonderful Pleasure by ndatwnuz
November 16, 2020, 04:07:39 am

Pożyczki Katowice od 264zł by vicky007
October 30, 2020, 06:26:56 am

Erotic Escorts and Get in touch with Lady in Udaipur by vicky007
October 27, 2020, 04:36:22 am

Blade Regalia by Tara
May 17, 2020, 02:29:13 am

Why I've been gone by Tara
May 17, 2020, 01:27:35 am

Furniture Rotan Sintetis by abcdefghijklmn
September 12, 2019, 09:32:44 pm

Broken by Orchid
January 01, 2019, 08:15:04 pm

When does a fanfic surpass the story it's based off? by Tara
December 28, 2018, 11:36:38 pm