Author Topic: Mandatory Chit Chat Thread (For the crickets out there !) (Read 7996 times)

Lumaria · « **Reply #270 on:** May 17, 2018, 02:23:35 am »

SO i want to stress that we've had this cycle burn out for a really long time. A lot of it has to do with character development and story pacing. And other times you just simply wanted to pursue your personal preferences in certain things above all else regardless of how much your story suffered from it.

And no matter how many times i broke down the fundamentals of good story pacing and character development and no matter, it would not stick. I gave you a layout to follow, so that every time you made a new version, you would have the tools (remember the golden rules) to re-evaluate your story before posting here. And it's obvious you didn't even attempt to use it.

And sometimes it comes off as a troll because you would not acknowledge the tips we had given you. Sometimes you would just say "OK" move on, and then either make drastic changes that were not part of the original issue (that creates even more issues).

You dont like it when i'm vague. you don't like it when i give you specifics. And whenever i attempt to hit that middle ground of "Not telling you how to write your story" and "Telling you exactly what the problem", it backfires anyways. I have to give you step-by-step instructions on how to write a story because the more broader advice doesn't sink in.

EDIT:
ON top of all that, i asked you questions to help understand what you want to achieve out of these characters and story. And sometimes i ask you what makes a good character, and what makes a good story. You would be vague and avoid the question. I dont know if it was to make yourself seem like an intellectual or you just genuinely dont have an idea.

The absolute worst thing about you is you promise change. You promise you'll do things different each time i want to give up on you.

I'm sorry if this is what you have to deal with. Only one person reviewing your story. I gave it my absolute best to help you. But i promise you, no one is going to put up with what i had to put up with. I'm not perfect. I've made mistakes in the past with reviewing stories. But this takes the cake for me. Tara, you are the one person who reads my reviews, says they are going to apply the advice, and then not do it.

変態 · « **Reply #271 on:** June 07, 2018, 01:39:29 am »

DeAngelus deactivated his account.

I thought this forum had a good start but this site is so dead. :\

Lumaria · « **Reply #272 on:** June 07, 2018, 04:02:55 am »

Quote from: 変態 on June 07, 2018, 01:39:29 am

DeAngelus deactivated his account.

I thought this forum had a good start but this site is so dead. :\

DeAngelus forgot what the forum is about and is now preferring her "mentor" and "senuor" who apparently has written actual "manga" who claims has experience with manga. But the behavior and tone clearly showed a child was behind the wheel.

The only one I could possibly imagine anyone actually having so-called manga experience and willing to respond to a script is Mark Crilley. The one guy who I see as a total overhyped artist in the manga industry.

Anyone else that Robyn Ryuu or DeAngelus claims is a complete lie.

I still have chapters to post. I'll be using the forum to work things out with my story. But yeah, unless we get more people, willing to review and write and share their stories, this forum doesnt have much use. it is quite dead. I have chapters upto 9 for Lunacy. And chapters upto 3.

I did email Orchid about the situation.

Orchid · « **Reply #273 on:** June 13, 2018, 08:42:23 pm »

So I reviewed the information. And I'm saddened this happened.

I did notice both you and DeAngelus were lead astray. I do understand both sides. But it looks like other parties involved. I'm going to have to make a rule for the future so that this doesn't happen again.

From now on, No piggy-back commenting. If someone from another forum wants to share any opinion on this forum they have to create their own profile. This is important because if we allow people to piggy-back their comments without joining, the one who does have a profile may end up getting banned for it.

The same rules apply as always. Email me or pm eachother if things get heated. You're right that the forum was to accept as many reviews as possible, not dismiss them. You made it clear what the purpose of the forum should be, and I agreed.

I will see what can be done. I was considering emailing DeAngelus privately but maybe giving space will help.

I'm also sad Tara left the forum. They were an active member who I enjoyed looking at their art. Their stories although not perfect showed potential in my humble opinion. I feel very bad for not being to be here in those crucial times.

Lumaria · « **Reply #274 on:** June 18, 2018, 12:35:12 am »

Ive given this a lot of thought. And i was given at an unfair advantage.

DeAngelus posted 12 chapters. 7 chapters in, i gave my honest opinions on it. The story pacing and tone was off, the world-building was lead to none. And the only thing i can gravitate to was A mystery that just wasn't enticing enough to make it my main interest in reading it, and a character that was also not appealing. In which DeAngelus keeps insisting isn't the main character.

You see, my biggest problem isn't that DeAngelus didn't want to follow my advice. But rather DeAngelus attempted to belittle it by saying "personal preference". Sure....I personally prefer good story telling. DeAngelus had no interest in addressing the issues given. Because according to DeAngelus, i was focusing on the wrong aspects of the story. Even though that was all i was given in the story.

DeAngelus hasn't really earned the trust enough for me to see the clues she wants me to see. Or maybe the goal isn't for me to see them at all. But what i'm left to perceive is bad story telling because there's not enough good story telling to really. She can say "Well its my story and lets just leave it at that".

But no, DeAngelus specifically aimed to say "personal preference". i'm going to say it. Anyone whoever coems out and says that, i will hound them down until they give a real reason why. Because i give personal recommendations. I give personal thoughts. But i dont push a personal preference in a story. Whatever they do to fix the story (even if it wasn't advice i explicitely said), if it actually fixes the flaws or makes them smaller, then i would praise it.

Another problem is when someone else gave a review it was mostly reactionary to mine. Rather than sticking with their own opinion without acknowledging mine. And the biggest problem is i know they had completely different revisions and also had more chapters to work with. I gave DeAngelus a fair review. I dare say, more than fair.

The first chapter is what i always preach that it is the foundation of a good story. It is the first impression. I was very generous to DeAngelus to even treat chapters 1 through 3 as the first chapter. If i would have given DeAngelus a conventional review, Chapter 1 would've been a failure. There was simply not enough world building and not enough character setup. The mystery overtook it all and there wasn't enough to really establish "the point of contact".

Orchid · « **Reply #275 on:** June 18, 2018, 10:11:00 pm »

The biggest concern I have is definitely the difference in revisions. I don't know if that's true, but based on the reviews and some of the quotes given it. I definitely don't agree with you on this 100%. But like I said, I saw both sides.

I managed to get two additional people into the forum. They were initially intending to review DeAngelus work while we agreed you stayed away. But it doesn't look like DeAngelus wants that either.

I have a feeling DeAngelus is very comfortable with her senior. Although I will agree, that senior didnt care about following the rules.

Either way. Maybe they can review your story. I'm still reaching out to tara

Lumaria · « **Reply #276 on:** June 28, 2018, 03:16:12 am »

Quote from: Tara on June 27, 2018, 10:17:09 am

Yes it seems strange in hindsight. I don't know exactly why we always had a misunderstanding there, and maybe that's why I can't promise that things will be any different. Nowadays I can sort of pick stories apart as I read or watch them and I can genuinely predict what will happen next or why some things do happen. Which is something I've never been able to come close to doing before.

I've given golden rules for you for a reason. I dont know how much you read into them. But its more than just preficting the plot, its what emotion you feel when you watch a story.

Do you feel good about it? Why? do you hate it? why? what could have made you hate it less or not at all?

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I think that we both heavily disagreed on what a character actually was. Which made it difficult for me to produce a character to your liking. You wanted a character this way, I wanted a character that way. You wanted the story to do this, I wanted the story to do that. What's worse is by the time FNO was even posted here, it already lost its true meaning. The real story I wanted to tell had been destroyed and I had no idea what I was doing with it, except I deluded myself into thinking I knew what I was doing with it.

The goal isn't to write a character that i personally like. The goal is to write a good character. I hope you know the difference. One is preference, another is quality. I"ll never force you to write a character such as giving them a specific personality over the other.

However, i will demand quality. and that means actually giving characters a personality. this is something you were working on in Blade Regalia. But FNO, your characters had no personality whatsoever. witty remarks at eachother? yes. But said nothing about the characters. and the characters would shift to a different tone.

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The intentions or "agendas" behind each story were not something you were allowed to know, and it's hardly something I could explain in a few words, except through reading the story. Blade Regalia seemed to make a statement on Religion, but it really never did. The whole garden of eden thing was just an origin story, it could've said evolved over millions of years and it still wouldn't be making a statement yet. It does set us up for the statements it does make, but you never read anything about that, and that is my fault entirely.

I think you have to analyze how Japan uses references in their stories as just randomly throwing them in there. When you have ideas like "Regalia" that has nothing to do with biblical, its hard to understand why included other religious references. Its a hard balance to do, and takes a while to learn. Its something very difficult to master.

But Blade Regalia's agenda effected negatively overall. The goal should be to write a good story first. And everything else second. So if any goals you had were interfering with telling a good story, then you should change it or adjust it. Maybe write the story first before making it for a game. Maybe don't rely on religious figures to approve your story.

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We could look at the Cannibal which kind of looks like it could be a serial work, but it really makes the most complete statement. But again, to my poor skill, it is missing some of it. To put into perspective how complicated it gets, the cannibal is told from the perspective of the antagonist. The girl directly represents an abuser. The story is meant to humanize her and help you empathize with her to ultimately change your perspective on the victim. And there's more going on there that we're missing, but that's the gist.

Cannibal is left as a 1 out of 3 parts. and had nothing left.

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I am an artist first and foremost. And that's what artists do when we're not doing functional art we're making statements. The FNO that you read, kind of deals with similar ideas and it also mixes up the roles, and instead of just swapping antagonist and protagonist, it's mixed up around 3 people. You always felt negatively towards Tara and you never thought of her as a strong female lead, but that was kind of intentional. She's playing the victim, but she's not blameless. She's almost asking for pain. That's typically not what you want in a victim, but that's what a lot of victims are, and a lot abusers aren't one-dimensionally demons sometimes. (I'm not saying like if you die in a terrorist attack then you asked for it.) Tara really takes that idea to the extreme, and the Cannibal takes that idea to the extreme as well.

This is the problem i see within both you and DeAngelus. The "Master plan syndrome". What you want to achieve may not always be a good idea. There will always be a "protagonist" or "main character". So long as your story has characters, and so long as they use the characters to move the story forward, there will always be a perception of who are major and who are minor. The reader will use what they are given to make that determination.

as much as many people try to remove that from the equation in their stories, they will always remain. And especially in manga and comics where we see characters all the time and dont have to rely on a the flow of the narrative to tell the story (like in novels).

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That's one of those things were I wanted something, and you wanted something else. You can't just simply teach someone how to make art, it's more complicated than that. I never felt confident enough in it to call it art, but if I did, I think it would have made it easier for us to understand where our misunderstandings are really stemming from.

Everything that you work on where you put effort, and soul into it is considered art. But make no mistake, not all stories are 100% art. Stories has always been a compromise one way or another to maximize entertainment. There's a structure, there's a goal. There's pacing, setup, etc.

To expect story telling to not compromise your art is asking for the impossible. Accepting that truth, and you now learn that finding your own way to making compromises is just as much as part of the art. And especially for manga and comics, because you also have to make compromises on what you intend to do.

Maybe you don't want to make good proportions. Maybe you don't want characters to look decent. Maybe you just want to make all the characters as ugly as possible. you can do that and still call it art. but that's not what story telling is about. It now takes audience into consideration and we have had generations on trying to master the craft of story telling. So it feels wrong when every story you try to do is just not based on a solid structure. no goal. no purpose other than what you want to achieve.

Yes, you achieved that Tara sucks as a character. it was intentional. then why should i read your story? who is your audience then? people who like bad characters?

Lumaria · « **Reply #277 on:** June 28, 2018, 08:45:33 pm »

Quote from: Tara on June 28, 2018, 01:47:37 pm

Why does illustration get a pass, but storytelling doesn't? I think that's very inconsistent. You're not thinking of it as art if that's the case. Picasso draws bad drawings. We call it abstract. I wrote bad stories, we call them bad? You're as conservative of stories being told a certain way as many people are of artwork being realistic. A lot of people don't like to look at abstract art at all.

Not all illustrations get a free pass.

For example: commercial artist learn what colors, lines, and patterns to use to make sure they invoke a certain feeling with those who look at their work. They gain satisfaction when others look at their work and feel the feeling the artist intended. To be a commercial artist means you must understand how humans work.

A lot of art can be selfish too. someone could make a flawed drawing. they could have intended the proportions to be perfect, but they're actually heavily flawed. Maybe colors clash so much it hurts peoples eyes and invokes anger and discomfort. But the artist can be completely selfish and say its not intended for their eyes. It could be just for that one artist and them alone.

The point is however that you can't treat them exactly the same way. Story telling has two key components: "Story" and "telling". You have to understand what a Story is and you have to understand how to tell it. And Telling it doesn't mean talking to yourself, it means you have "someone" in mind. An audience. Story telling requires you to be less selfish and really make a connection with your audience.

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What I believe art is, and I promise is the best definition you will find anywhere besides some crazy dude saying "everything": Non-functional aspects of something. That's the bare minimum where I look at something and think of it as art, but it's also anywhere where a statement is being made.

Of course art can be based entirely on its function (kinetic sculptures). So your definition is definitely a flawed one.

Yes, art can also make a statement as well, but don't confuse that as the core of what makes art "art". Making a statement is part of the goal of "invoking a feeling/thought. Invoking feeling/thought can be done without actually making a statement of any kind (abstract)

Without invoking a feeling or thought, the statement is pointless in terms of Art. It might as well be a picket sign simply with the statement on it. But like i said, visual art can be selfish at times because it can be made without a single audience in mind other than the artist themselves. This is partly due to humans being imperfect. if we had the ability to photograph anything our minds imagined with exact precision, then we wouldn't to pick up a pen/pencil /paintbrush/clay and make it so we see it with our very eyes.

But this is very important that you accept this is as part of story telling. You HAVE to invoke a feeling when writing. You have to aim for it. Without invoking a feeling, you have the most horrible writing. Its just words filling up space with one random encounter to the next. Time and time again, I've asked you: "What is your story suppose to make me feel when i read it?" And you simply could not answer it. It was always "i don't know" and there were times when you didn't even want to think about it. And i see now, because its never been part of the equation when writing your stories. You never cared about your audience.

You have to understand that story telling is not the same as visual medium.

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So you can see right here. Instantly. We have a different set of philosophical beliefs. You only think of a story as something that functions in a specific way. You leave no room for it to be artistic, no room to appreciate anything beyond its function. Just as most people leave no room for abstract art. Most people believe illustration's function is to be realistic. Before cameras were invented, it was, but that's no longer necessary.

I'm not forcing you to have my philosophy. I only care about a good story, and thats all. So i'm going to prove to you why this isn't true by bringing back your stories: Blade Regalia and FNO.

FNO first. sure, you made some of the most annoying as hell characters in this story. You wanted to push ideas, but didn't create a foundation. You had a creator go into his own creation for a character he cared about (Tara). Which is a problem because A) you didn't make your readers care enough about his relationship and how much it means to him and B) you didn't even establish any character personality traits for your reader to grasp onto.

This is where you were spouting out your intentions with your story. Character having an abortion. Characters having divorce. ideas with no structure, or really purpose other than your statement. you didn't plan out what iw as suppose to feel. and guess what i felt: annoyed. Felt like you were throwing ideas and see what sticks. And couple that with NOT TRUSTING YOU TO ACTUALLY USE THOSE THEMES PROPERLY.

Your stories have one thing in common: your characters are soo annoying, they're unreadable. None of the characters had a redeemable quality worth looking into. NOne of the characters had potential to grow or at least you didn't show us that. You had a statement, and you said it. it was a stupid one. character was annoying. do you feel accomplished?

OK, lets move onto Blade Regalia. This time, you're aiming for something else. Maybe because it was intended for an audience (finally) although that audience was in the medium of video games (which lacks freedom in telling the story properly). You made Karen or whatever her name was to be the typical hero. But you made it almost your mission to NOT explore the world of Blade Regalia and your characters. Yes we got backstory. Yes we got to see other characters at least have an ounce of personality. But your story telling was so rushed, you didn't allow readers to provoke thoughts or ideas. it was just exposition, and moving onto the next piece of exposition.

What city was Karen in and what was it like in there? IF Karen lived in the streets what was her way of living? How did she fall in love with the guy?

questions that shouldn't be asked were asked. This was you missing every opportunity. THis has nothing to do with your philosophy. This has to do with your lack of perception. Your story 9 out of 10 times is missing structure. And because its missing structure, you can't invoke thoughts and feelings within an audience. And dont even try to tell me thats not your goal.

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I'm not against the idea of personality. I'm not even against good story telling. I know you probably think I am.

You're right, i do think you're against good story telling and the idea of a personality. Its more important to you to go against the current than to understand it and grow from it.

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Me personally, on a completely personal level, I would rather read something that changes my way of thinking rather than just wastes my time. That's why it's important to me to write that way.

I'm pretty sure every artist and writer wants to achieve this to some degree with their story. or at least provoke a thought and feeling to invoke change just as much as a feeling.

there's no excuse for your writing though.

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We have totally different beliefs on a philosophical level. As I said, you want this, I want that. Biggest difference between Picasso and I is Picasso actually knew what he was doing when he did it. Maybe no one is the target audience, maybe everyone is. Maybe you're not the target audience for reasons much deeper than just your age, ethnicity, gender, and religion, which would be the case for other stories.

i want good story. and i dont know what you want, but i know objectively, you dont want a good story.

Lumaria · « **Reply #278 on:** June 28, 2018, 08:48:15 pm »

don't even bother arguing with me about this Tara. you've always been a contrarian. you'd rather argue that we're different rather than prove why you create a good story.

and if you dont know how, you shouldn't be saying any of this.

Before even arguing about how i'm wrong, i want you to prove why the structure doesn't work. only then will you have something worth saying.

Lumaria · « **Reply #279 on:** June 29, 2018, 03:29:16 am »

Quote from: Tara on June 29, 2018, 12:25:58 am

You actually consider kinetic art functional? That's funny. I see we have very different philosophies on function. I can't do anything with a kinetic sculpture. Movement is not a function. What you're referring to is an "Action". An action and a function are two different things. I'm going to keep using that phrase different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy, different philosophy. If you want an agreement, you have to first accept why our opinions are different.

Of course we have different opinions. but i don't want to hear excuses as to why theres a large gap in the story telling process. The problem isn't that we want two different things. I just want good story telling.

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Did you honestly think I go to art school and never thought about kinetic art. You had to have been drawing at straws. I spent hours trying to figure out how you can fit architecture into that description, and you bring up kinetic art. Because for instance in art history, they usually pay attention to architecture as well as religious art which seems very functional. And there's a reason why it still works, but I'm not going to get into that.

Based on the anime art i've seen, the lack of real-world proportions integrated into them, i wouldn't have imagined you were in art school. If you were in the art school i was in, they would've asked you to stop drawing anime altogether and focus on proportions and realism. And for good reason as it would get in the way of learning proper proportions and form. Its not that my art school wants me to quit altogether, but most people use it as a crutch.

You better find a better definition for art then, because function exists within art. it may not be the core, but its there.

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Commercial art has a function. And that function is to be pleasing to the consumer. It has nothing to do with it being representational, it has nothing to do with color, or line in isolation, it has to do with the consumer. The consumer is in complete control of the illustration being made. That is not art. That is business.

You mean the client. The client has complete control of the illustration. And if they did, they wouldn't hire an artist to do it. And it is intended to be pleasing to the consumer. That is for sure. But don't understimate how much work and skill that actually takes.

There is art in business. Its just a compromise. and that's what I've been trying to highlight to you. You can't treat it like deviantart where you can be selfish and just say its for you and you alone when it comes to storytelling. You have to make compromises in order to grow and understand what it means to make good art/story.

story telling has a function too.

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If you asked me what is my artwork supposed to make you feel. It would be stupid to answer that. Answering that only serves to belittle the effectiveness of it. What art makes you feel is personal to you.

This is why you're not progressing when it comes to story telling. Story telling without trying to engage with your audience and just making them accept whatever group of words. I'm going to tell you again: Stop treating story telling like visual art. Its not the same thing.

it requires more thought into the audience.

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Again philosophical disagreement. Kinetic art is not functional. An action is not a function. At least to me, it's not. That's my philosophy. Maybe that's not your philosophy, it doesn't actually matter to me. You could say its function is to move, but the movement that takes place is artistic because it could make any movement. Why does it move the way it does if it could move any way it wanted? Why does a painting look the way it does if it could look like anything it wanted? That is art.

you're just contradicting yourself.

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This actually isn't an argument. This is a discussion. You are the one who refuses to discuss. I simply stated, that we disagree. I stated what I believe and then you argued against it. If you don't want to argue, stop arguing and start discussing.

i don't want to hear that we have differences in philosophies as to why you're not progressing or that we want different things out of your story. That throws out all the valid critique on your stories.

Its not a matter of "I want this" and "you want that". In the end, the goal is to write objectively better. Like i said, i'm never going to force you to write a character with qualities i enjoy. BUT i will ask that characters meet the criteria for good story-telling.

Characters need to have personalities, flaws, quirks, redeeming qualities, goals. etc. And if your story progresses through characters, then you have to explore those things as soon as possible. Otherwise, why continue reading?

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"What is your story suppose to make me feel when i read it?" And you simply could not answer it.

This is one of those things where I felt answering the question would be considered an argument. Obviously I was correct because you refuse to have a discussion.

So i'm going to say this: if you can't answer this question, that is the reason you've never been able to progress. You never tried to control the audiences feelings and thoughts through story telling.

I gain so much satisfaction when someone gives me a review of my story and feel or have an opinion on my characters and it ends up being exactly what i wanted to achieve. It tells me the reader is connecting to the story the way i wanted and they see it the way i wanted it to be told.

I aim to do that at a scene by scene basis. Each scene has purpose not just for the goals i want to achieve in the story but also for the audience. They have to gain some satisfaction, some thought or opinion or feeling out each scene. It can't be at a chapter by chapter basis. And you notice this with manga and anime how the art changes slightly when they want to make you laugh, and go back to detailed when they want you to focus on the story.

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My perspective on characters and storytelling in general has actually changed since the time I wrote FNO, but for me it was important that the character plays his role. I was always looking at the story as a whole. You were looking at the details. I think over time I could have gone back and fixed some of the elements and details that were distracting.

No. i wasn't looking at the "Details". i was looking at what's missing in your story. What you fail to execute. What you just don't do.

In FNO, your characters just "existed". There were story-like events that emulate a story, but there was a huge disconnect between me and the story. these characters did nothing to highlight who they were. They were just there, they had no real human qualities. Its like trying to turn a couple in a restaurant you see from a distance into a story.

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There were some characters whose role was to have a personality. Their role in the story revolved entirely around how it would feel to interact with them. We can continue to compare FNO to art here it'd be as if I drew Tara from FNO and one arm was too small. Even if it was intentional, the statement the piece was making had nothing to do with proportion or arms or anything, the arm could be regualar sized, and the statement would be the same, right. I'm still speaking Hypothetically here, in the art world we could call that small arm "distracting". The arm is completely distracting from the actual message of the piece and should be changed.

You also have to stop comparing story-telling to visuals. Art can be completed on a single canvas. Story telling can't always be done that way. Each chapter is posted separately, and i review each individual chapter as if it was a manga that you want to pursue.

Tara, was not human. Tara by the things she said, by the things she did. Had no values. SHe had no personality. She didn't feel real. She felt like something only meant for you to manipulate and create

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That's a similar problem with Tara and FNO or Blade Regalia, is that the poor elements of the story are distracting you. The story's message doesn't revolve around Tara's personality, but the fact that she didn't have one, was distracting. And that should be fixed. If the story were making a statement on personality, or the abstract personalities as a whole were in of themselves making a statement, then that would make more sense from an artistic point of view.

Its more than just distracting. Its the fact that she had no personality meant you really didn't think deeply into what your audience should feel. (i'm sounding repetitious on purpose because you have to acknowledge these aspects)

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Blade Regalia did create some challenges for me because it was a commercial work, however. The story was going to be illustrated or animated and free to view even without having bought the game. It was purely a service to the gamers, not as a commercial venture. The game itself, was not story driven. It's multiplayer. That being the case I wanted to pursue it as some kind of median between artistic and commercial venture.

What has changed is now the game is also story driven, and that's lead me to make some changes. So now it's much more commercial than artistic. I still love it. I love seeing what it's becoming. I agree that's definitely a mistake not to explore the world or to explore who Katherine is because even within the game the world is very expansive lore wise. It begs you to learn more about it. You do have different cultures and different races and the different Regalia depending on it and it's really fun to explore now. I agree there were missteps there.

This is the compromise i'm talking about. Just because its not what you originally envisioned or had to make compromises, doesn't mean you stop calling it art.

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You're not Real probably has a lot of potential just by the name. But the story itself is not good. The protagonist is based on a character from Blade Regalia by the same name who actually is a sociopath. But in Blade Regalia he's an antagonist.

This was a problem. You can't just switch out a role and put it on that character's perspective and assume people will relate or connect with the character. So why do people want to follow a sociopath in a story? Theres no redeeming quality. At that point, we're just seeing a sociopath be a sociopath. It doesn't service the audience.

It invoked a feeling alright, and that was to be annoyed as heck. But my goal in writing is to make sure its pleasing the reader enough to move onto the next chapter. So if your character was so annoying i couldn't read it anymore.

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The story didn't really say anything either. I thought it would be interesting to push the idea that "love didn't exist" or that love was specifically the "You" the title is referring to, but the protagonist was poorly executed. Now I can look at it and see some things that would've made it work a lot better. If the protagonist's struggles seemed more unfair, then it might have been more interesting, but I didn't like the protagonist either. I didn't know how to fix him. You gave me solutions, but they wouldn't solve the bigger problem so I abandoned it. I would basically just have to torture the protagonist

So this is where story telling is different. We're creating essentially real people. And the goal is that these characters are believable. And if we want to achieve something out of them, we have to manipulate their surroundings to fit that purpose.

Lumaria · « **Reply #280 on:** June 30, 2018, 10:12:04 pm »

Quote from: Tara on June 29, 2018, 06:20:42 am

Function exists within art, yes. A painting's function is to be seen. It has a function. I agree. But what is artistic is what's done beyond that function. As I a said the "non-functional aspects". I did not say "art is an object that doesn't perform ANY function". Art is the aspects of an object that are not pertaining to its function. There is function within objects, but not in art. Art is not just an object.

you said non-function in your definition. its too specific and really has no need. you're overexplaining it. Non-function isn't a key factor to art. There are cathedrals and castles that the way they approach function is considered art. Its not worth arguing/discussing and you know it.

The core of art is to invoke feeling/thought. if you focus on that, it really doesn't matter what other things you add onto the definition.

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So if you're a slave owner. And you have complete control of a slave. You're saying you wouldn't need a slave to do anything if you have control over him? An artist has a skill you need. You pay money, he illustrates in the same way that a painter puts paint on a brush in order to paint. They both want a picture, they both do what they need to do to make it happen.

I'm not going to address this poor analogy for obvious reasons.

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In a way we could technically say that the client is the artist, and the illustrator is just a medium that the client uses to illustrate. We can call it artistic because the consumer can spend his money on whatever he wants, but the fact that he spends it on that illustration is in of itself making a statement.

You're right. in a way, you could technically say that....

i could technically say anything i want, just like you. Could you say that and be objectively accurate? No. Explanation below.

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Yes, the client doesn't always specify every single little detail about a piece so the artist does have to invent some ideas and that is artistic because it extends past the clients demands into the artist's liberty of choice among a series of choices. Another way to look at art, it is a choice among many choices.

Depends on the artist and client. the artist still using his mind to create something that correlates with what the client had in mind. Its not the same as creating a mugshot from thought, or at least not always. And for a client its also a bonus for the artist to create something better than what he could've imagined.

The client relies on a commercial artist to help visualize what he can't. Or at least to put ideas into physical form. A client may only have vague ideas and still rely on the artist to execute them. At the end of the day, the client says yes or no if its not close to what the client envisioned, but like i said "depends on the artist and client". the client doesn't always get involved in the process of creating it. They can ask for key aspects.

Point is you'll have to make compromises in order to grow in both illustrations and story-telling. you're not being slaved off if you choose to go into commercial illustrator or writer.

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Storytelling's function is to be read or heard. Period. You can ascribe golden rules to story telling if you would like. The consumer can ascribe golden rules to stories he would purchase if he chooses. Commercial storytelling doesn't even follow your golden rules. SAO for instance. Where are Kirito's flaws at? But still a hugely successful product. Different people do have different standards. A lot of people don't pay attention to personality at all. Do I think it's better that characters have a personality? On a personal level, yes I do.

No. Not period. The act of being heard/read shares an intention again that correlates with illustration and that is still to invoke thought/feeling.

SAO is more concept than a story. The concept sells more than the story. Kirito as a person isn't important to SAO. Kirito more or less was suppose to function like a typical 1337 gamer, but comes across as the perfect love interest who everyone happens to like him and adore him. For SAO, the story is an excuse to move the concept forward. it doesn't care how good or how bad the story is (unfortunately).

Its important to not bring examples of sucessful bad writing as a way to avoid the golden rules. They're not intentionally giving a bad story, they just overlooked them because they focused on a different aspect. Pointing them out is just as important to improve.

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I think the fact that you can't see a correlation between story-telling and illustration is very simple-minded. That's just my opinion. Maybe I think too much about everything.

No, you're just using our different views as a way to push an extreme (like when you compared commercial art to slaves)

At its core, they share similar goals to provoke thought/opinion/emotion into the one who reads/views it. But just as they are two different mediums, they have two different approaches and foundations. Illustrations can be a whole story packaged in a single canvas and the joy is to interpret the story from paint strokes, color choices, etc. This is where "a picture can say a 1000 words" expression comes in, because the viewer has to now fill in the blanks of whatever story they see in that picture.

Story-telling (and this includes comics and manga that use visuals as well) focus on the actual telling of the story. And to optimize it, the writer/teller focuses on the flow and pacing, the way characters are written, the amount of effort the writer does to immerse you into this fictional world or even non-fictional event. Story-telling is more of a process when you're sharing it. When you share illustrations, its usually in complete form. And even if you share the process of the painting its not the same as telling a completed story.

Here's an analogy to pusht he point across: when you tell an extensive joke, you have to make sure you're presenting the setup in an appealing way so that when you reach the punchline, your audience reach the intended feeling and laugh.

Like i said, story-telling is meant to be told to someone else other than yourself, so you have to take the audience into account. visual medium doesn't have to. it can be completely selfish. its not called illustration-sharing. just illustrations.

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As of this discussion, perhaps I did in the past because I was prideful, but as of this discussion. I have not once excused any mistake I've made. I have done more to recognize how to fix them than you have. I explained why they happened. But I did not argue that they made the story better.

then we shouldn't be arguing about commercial art and how different you see story-telling.

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In the past I've never actually taken it seriously when you'd say I don't put the audience first. Or I don't care about the audience.. That's mostly why you don't feel like you've ever gotten a good answer. I know what Katherine looks like. I know what she acts like and what wants. Why would I draw a picture of her? So that I'll know what I already know? Why would I write about her?

You don't even need to draw her. But just giving basic description of her, helps her easier to imagine. Otherwise, you're relying on the reader to make something up. And that's hard to do when you're just starting out the story at chapter 1. that means we have to imagine the character as we're reading the script. And you can't afford to do that with bad-writing habits.

Novels can get away with this at times by using the flow of the narration gloss over it. but when you share a script, fully intended to be drawn. its not a good idea to leave it out.

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You could say the audience is the only reason she exists, but the reason why I never told you that Tara is supposed to make you feel like she's a victim who isn't blameless is the same reason why artists don't explain their art. I want you to have your own personal experience, or revelation, or emotion, from it. I want Tara to open up a discussion, not simply be a sentence.

we never got far into the story to ever reach any of these ideas (look at previous joke analogy). First few chapters were always flawed to the core, that we couldn't move forward.

The problem wasn't that you never told me Tara was supposed to make me feel like a victim who isn't blameless (which is more of a statement, than an intended feeling). The problem was that Tara was so indistinguishable from the start. Your goal is only to eventually reveal that shows that you didn't think of her like a real character.

And because of that, she was mildly annoying. Never really giving the reader a good idea of what kind of personality she has. Too many melodramatic scenes with no build up to them (once again, the joke analogy i said before). In the end, Tara was annoying. So why would the reader stay for the setup if the setup isn't interesting?

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I could go back and tell you every single emotion you were meant to feel in FNO and Blade Regalia, and why all those years ago you were meant to feel that way, and I could even tell you why you didn't feel that way. I didn't want to tell you that, because I wanted you to have your own interpretation. Could it have helped us figure out solutions had I told you? Yes. Obviously it could have. I made a mistake. I've made many. I'm used to it.

Its good to analize the review. I always aim to focus on certain events where someone tells me "this scenes is soo annoying" and i go back and try to see why they feel the way they feel.

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #281 on:** July 05, 2018, 08:19:50 pm »

lmao this place goes nearly dead for like a year and the next big burst of activity is a bunch of head scratching and picking at someone's brains for answers that don't exist. i love y'all. that isn't sarcasm, btw.

Orchid · « **Reply #282 on:** July 07, 2018, 02:30:12 am »

NO i hear you. i recently have a couple of individuals looking into the stories provided. so hopefully they'll start soon. I always recommend helping out and recommending the place.

i understand the sentiment though. its tough. for a short while we did have consistent amount of people. Some people just end up disapearing for a while. Honestly, the whole situation with DeAngelus has put me at a loss.

i understand both sides. but i definitely don't agree with the approach. It really takes one review to really throw a way friendships. and thats what really depresses me about it all.

Orchid · « **Reply #283 on:** July 08, 2018, 10:55:19 pm »

I modified the rules before.

I thought it was initially implied that the steps to deescalating issues was more direct, but now i see it only appears as a suggestion. So i made the deescalation process mandatory. If anyone has issues with another user, they must follow this process to deescalate.

I also added the rule of no piggy-back riding. If someone wants to make their opinion public in this forum, they cannot do it by proxy of another user. Everyone is accountable for their own opinions and thoughts. Its safer for the proxy member because they can break the rules and not realize it.

Lumaria · « **Reply #284 on:** July 20, 2018, 04:27:11 am »

i'll be posting the chapters very soon. I do like the rules better. And you shouldn't worry about people like that.

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