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Author Topic: You're Not Real  (Read 866 times)

Tara

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You're Not Real
« on: June 15, 2017, 12:23:37 am »
Still working on the Blade Regalia chapter. But in the meantime I thought I'd post this. I came up with this one while I was away. It's a first of many things for me. For one it's not fantasy, and there's a male protagonist. Crazy right. It's called "You're not real". It's a dark romance story touching on the romantic adventures of a teenager and his coping mechanism for his crippling depression. Incidentally, this is meant to become a graphic novel.

Chapter 1: You're not real
Chapter 2: You saved me
Chapter 3: You're not alone
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 11:22:03 pm by Tara »

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Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 12:23:53 am »
Chapter 1 Full Text.
Spoiler (hover to show)
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:20:20 am by Tara »

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 12:24:08 am »
Chapter 2: Full Text
Spoiler (hover to show)
« Last Edit: June 18, 2017, 11:08:47 pm by Tara »

Lumaria

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 07:26:05 pm »
Read both chapters. Seems interesting concept. But it always seems like you wrote the most HATABLE characters.

The main character is just not enjoyable or redeemable in anyway. His friends are just background characters. The things he does make me hate him instantly. He is a sociopath.

You at least have a stronger idea of what you're doing here. Unless you suddenly reveal something really crazy and obscure that completely destroys what you built up.

But I'll save judgement when you finish a story.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:31:59 pm by Lumaria »

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2017, 11:42:10 pm »
That means a lot to me coming from you.

My apologies I wrote this without knowing what the characters appearances would be so I didn't give you much information on that in the text.

Spoiler: Jeremy (hover to show)

Spoiler: Amyrie (hover to show)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 11:43:54 pm by Tara »

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2017, 11:09:05 pm »
Chapter 3

Spoiler (hover to show)

(Revisions have been made to chapter 1 and 2. Revised text is in Orange)
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:01:52 am by Tara »

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2017, 11:19:29 pm »
The thought process: Jeremy brings up being a compulsive reader but he never showed this trait. I added him reading books to scenes where he is idling in order to make this more obvious. I also introduced a new opening to chapter 1 as an eye grabber, and to showcase his more chivalrous tendencies towards women. I also highlighted the revised text so that you don't have to read through the whole thing just to find small changes and you can see the context of why something needed to change there.

Lumaria would like to see this finished, so I'm going to work on this instead of Blade Regalia until it's finished. And then I'll go back to it.

Lumaria

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2017, 08:42:39 am »
I don't know if it's a happy coincidence that we have another character in our story to share a name. As I have a character named Grayson. You have it as Grayson. Last time is was Lucia with Lunacy. I passed it off the first time as a coincidence. But I'm becoming very wary at this point as we are both using the name as a first name when it's normally a last name.


Onto your story: I do want to stress that I do prefer you finishing this story because unlike your other stories you don't have a supernatural fantasy world that you focus too much on revealing and forget what the most important part of writing, characters. But if it's not a Mary sue it is the problem in reverse. You give characters such horrible personalities with no redeemable qualities.

Now Your characters however are so wrong in so many ways. You have a tendency to tell us rather than show us. Which is a problem.

Why should I care about Nicole, Brian or Jeremy? These characters just don't feel like they have distinct personalities other than trying to sound as High school as possible. Their dialogue is either very stiff or very immature.

Like I said you have very HATABLE characters. I always end up hating your characters and part of the reason why is because you don't develop them well. You used to show off Mary sue characters. Characters that has literally no defining flaw they need to work on and everyone gravitated to them for no reason. You still tend to do that with your fantasy based stories.

You use a lot of small talk with these characters but nothing really happens. There's nothing moving the story forward. And your character Jeremy really feels like he has a mental issue. He is clearly not all there. Even if the 1% chance of Amerie being a real person in some way, everything he has done feels wrong.

And now we have another character who has imaginary friend? How old are these people? Are they in high school? If so it's definitely weird and wrong to have imaginary friends.

EDIT:
I also recommend adding in as much detail as possible in the descriptions and actions these characters do. Even if you know it's there it doesn't mean much to me if I don't see what is going on. The simple change in scenery is important. In the end this script will not be enough for an artist. You will habe to draw a name or a manuscript for the artist to follow.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 12:00:58 pm by Lumaria »

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2017, 01:50:30 pm »
I don't recall much of lunacy, but I normally take the names from people I meet in real life, which results in more common names. I'm not making caricatures of them, I'm using their name out of context of their actual personality.

I think the story would be unreadable if not for Amyrie. When I read it, in every scene she's the most compelling thing to me.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2017, 01:53:10 pm by Tara »

Lumaria

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2017, 02:05:43 pm »
Why is she compelling? She acts just like a construct of a social inept/sociopathic kid would act. Plus she's not the main character, Jeremy is. So you'll have to do better with character development.

You're tooting your own horn with Amyrie you fail to see she isn't the foundation of the story. Jeremy is.

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2017, 12:36:43 am »
Amyrie is a reflection of Jeremy. All of the good in Jeremy I see through Amyrie. She's just a very entertaining way to look at our own natural introspection. She shows that he is in some way conscious of his own shortcommings. I think in place of fantasy elements this one has a lot of themes and disciplines. The 3 word names for each chapter is a discipline, and then themes relating to the usage of the word "real".

I enjoy the patterns. I enjoy the patterns because it adds a special infliction to the moment when the pattern is broken. Jeremy says to Amyrie, "you're not real", "you're not real", and then Amyrie says "I know I'm not real". The reader would've picked up on that pattern at the same time she did. Sometimes it seems like the reader speaks through Amyrie. When I read a couple times I start asking those questions, "Why this, why not that, what's wrong with this". At least, that's how I want to use her.

In response to tooting my horn. I can give you the thought process that I had. I can show you all the math. But I will never say, "you should enjoy the things that you don't enjoy". The customer is always right and in this instance you are speaking for the consumer. By default you are always right.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 12:40:41 am by Tara »

Lumaria

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2017, 05:39:49 am »
Every time I attempt to explain to you what makes a great character or even just a variable character you completely ignore ir. I don't know how many times I can repeat myself.

It feels like there's a mental block in your head that refuses to see other people's view. You can only see your own. The fact that you make comments like "the customer is always right". For fiction it's usually subjective, but you lack the basic skills to create worthy charscters.


The concept is ok. But every character acts and speaks as if they have a mental disorder. Back from your previous stories that is the pattern I see. Leaps in logic, no effort for the characters to understand eachother. Constantly telling but never showing.

I'm out Tara. These characters are getting worst. This is a concept where you have only one thing to focus on: Character development.

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2017, 01:44:14 pm »
You contradicted yourself.

First off you like to define my mental state purely based on my storytelling. Not sure how many psychologists would recommend that but it can give you some information. You're arguing that Storytelling is a skill that I'm not growing in. Because I'm not growing in this skill I have a mental disorder that would stop me from growing in all skills.

Seems like a natural self defense to an argument, you don't agree with me, so you have a mental disorder, but I think you should take a look at why you believe this is the only skill that I don't seem to grow in. A mental state could block me from growing in this skill, that's true, but that's also true for everything else, so what sets this apart. I researched how in art, children rapidly become more skilled over time because the parts of the brain that handle illustration are developing. A mental state would hinder any skill.

All of the other skills that I have are evidence against that claim, but I'll take a look at it anyway. You said, Jeremy's a bad character and all his friends are bad characters. They act as if they have a mental disorder, no redeeming qualities, so what did I say? What is the best way to ignore a statement like that? I guess it would be to just go ahead and post chapter 4, but instead I said:

"I think the story would be unreadable if not for Amyrie."

Amyrie is "the most compelling thing to me"

This makes a comparison to say that Amryie, in concept, character design, everything, is better than every other character. If the other characters make the story unreadable, clearly I must think they're perfect characters. So saying that she's better than them is not saying much. If you call that tooting my horn I must be as depressed as Jeremy.

What I say here is, when I enter the reader's shoes, I would not be able to keep reading if it wasn't for Amyrie. I'm all for talking down about my work, I'm all for it, but diagnosing mental disorders in my self, thank you, but no thank you, my brain is perfectly healthy. I stopped having pride in this kind of stuff a long time ago. I've said it again and again, the story is the only thing up for scrutiny here. It feels like you have a mental block against that fact.

If you're not interested in scrutinizing the only thing up for scrutiny here, then I have no reason to post the script here.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2017, 01:51:25 pm by Tara »
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Lumaria

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2017, 07:54:09 pm »
You contradicted yourself.

First off you like to define my mental state purely based on my storytelling. Not sure how many psychologists would recommend that but it can give you some information. You're arguing that Storytelling is a skill that I'm not growing in. Because I'm not growing in this skill I have a mental disorder that would stop me from growing in all skills.
Whether you think mental disorder is synonymous with mental block is debatable, I don't define either purely by your story telling but how you react to reviews how little changes you make. And how much you ignore advice and act like you read it all.

But no. I'm saying you have a mental "block" that stops you from seeing other people's view. Because you simply don't relate to the reader or try to understand what the general reader would want.

The things you associate with character progression is patterns. And I don't know if you're trying to show off an aspect of yourself or genuinely believe the reasons you give but you never give anything in this story. But its clearly not a realistic method to write characters.

Quote
Seems like a natural self defense to an argument, you don't agree with me, so you have a mental disorder, but I think you should take a look at why you believe this is the only skill that I don't seem to grow in. A mental state could block me from growing in this skill, that's true, but that's also true for everything else, so what sets this apart. I researched how in art, children rapidly become more skilled over time because the parts of the brain that handle illustration are developing. A mental state would hinder any skill.

Yes some people excell in certain things despite their disorders. Not that I'm saying you have one. But you clearly not well rounded either. So I'm not going to deny that possibility. What I am saying is you have a mental block between understanding your readers.

But you don't disagree with minor things in story development. You know you aren't good and continue the same path. You don't expand or make it bearable to read. You keep it all the same.

Quote
All of the other skills that I have are evidence against that claim, but I'll take a look at it anyway. You said, Jeremy's a bad character and all his friends are bad characters. They act as if they have a mental disorder, no redeeming qualities, so what did I say? What is the best way to ignore a statement like that? I guess it would be to just go ahead and post chapter 4, but instead I said:

"I think the story would be unreadable if not for Amyrie."

Amyrie is "the most compelling thing to me"


This makes a comparison to say that Amryie, in concept, character design, everything, is better than every other character. If the other characters make the story unreadable, clearly I must think they're perfect characters. So saying that she's better than them is not saying much. If you call that tooting my horn I must be as depressed as Jeremy.[/quote]

Tooting your horn or in other words patting yourself on the back or accepting victory early. That is what I'm saying. You acknowledged these characters are not good but you didnt agree that they are a flaw in your writing. Your opinion is that without Amyrie the story would be unreadable. Therefore what you are actually saying is "Amyrie is suppose to outshine the others".

Yes. I truly believe you are tooting your own horn. You chose a colorful name. You made her abnormally caring and unrealistic who is connected to the WORST character to feel any sympatht for. A character who just has no redeemable qualities, has leaps in logic and just makes no sense.

Quote
What I say here is, when I enter the reader's shoes, I would not be able to keep reading if it wasn't for Amyrie.
that's not the readers shoes. What you are really saying is "I wrote it the way I intended it to be read". Because if you truly attempted to read it like it was your first time, not even Amyrie would be a redeeming factor in this stoty.She does not make the flaws in the story go away and she does not make these characters better.

Quote
I'm all for talking down about my work, I'm all for it, but diagnosing mental disorders in my self, thank you, but no thank you, my brain is perfectly healthy. I stopped having pride in this kind of stuff a long time ago. I've said it again and again, the story is the only thing up for scrutiny here. It feels like you have a mental block against that fact.

If you're not interested in scrutinizing the only thing up for scrutiny here, then I have no reason to post the script here.

We've discussed about this problem for how many years? You've reworked roughly 4 stories. You rebooted half of those twice until you move onto the next. And you always have the same flaws. Your characters don't give thought process, they don't share their values in a natural way. They tell they never show. They are either the WORST human beings or the World revolves around them.

Either way you always quick to move from one scene to the next and you never build a scene give us a proper image. You don't help your readers visualize.

Sad thing is I've said this countless times. What can I tell You? I already tried giving you examples but that has proven non effective. You don't see the value in the revisions or additions. And you say i habe the mental block?

I'm out then. Unless you are willing to accept the problem and truly understand Why, then I can't help you. No one can. If you think you are healthy sane then fine by me, we should've made progress. We don't have to agree. Look at La Sanctum. I clearly don't agree with De Angelus in everything BUT De Angelus  story is different. If you're familiar with He'll girl style of story telling they are seemingly independent stories being told all at once and eventually converge together. So only on that merit I'm waiting for the convergence because that's what matters. But I still push to making that easier for the reader to grasp and enjoy. I still give criticism.

But you have glaring holes. You don't have the fundamentals. You push them away. So what can I tell you? You think you have more experience and more skills to disagree? You don't have to agree with everything but what you disagree with usually is a giant problem.

Tara

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Re: You're Not Real
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2017, 01:36:09 am »
The only thing I disagree with are claims against me as a person. Perhaps if you reviewed the story instead of attacking me, you might have seen that progress. I admit I used to argue for the sake of the story because I had pride in it. But I don't do that anymore.

 I think in pictures, I read this script seeing the final copy and calculating ways to illustrate it. I don't see this as the text that it is, but you do, and so that's why I don't discredit everything you say and that's why there is clearly a disconnect in the way you experience it from the way I experience it. The things I write about are the things that interest me, so when I read works from others that are this way, I'm completely comfortable with it.

And you may not be comfortable with that, and many people may not be comfortable with that. It is a complete lie that I have made no progress at all. And yes, I can say that with the only credible voice being myself. For the same reason that I can say that my artwork now is better than my artwork when I was 3 years old. You have a right to believe what you want, but I personally don't fancy believing in lies. I shouldn't have to show you Sentieria Legends for you to know that. But I'm no Leonardo Da Vinci, there's still improvements to be made, but improvements have been made.

I don't need you to give me credit for anything, I'm just saying you don't have to lie. I understand that's just a rhetorical statement to get a rise out of me because you think I only listen to you when I'm kicking and screaming in anger. I prefer to be slow to anger.

You said you have a problem with me jumping from story to story. Blade Regalia isn't something that I can just quit on. It's going to happen, the story yes, I can put on pause and work on later. That trend just shows how similar this is to illustration. I don't finish a lot of pictures for 1 reasons.

Drawing is both physically, and mentally taxing and time consuming. I have to really be interested in drawing the image in order to continue, if it's an assignment or artwork for blade regalia, then this doesn't technically apply.

The one thing that will make me stop drawing a picture is when I realize the foundation is bad. I draw in a step by step process, skeleton - body - clothes - details. When I'm in details stage there's nothing I can do except finish it, can't go back and fix the foundation, I'm in too deep.

Since this topic is about me and not the story, I'll do some introspective. Me choosing to stop writing a story would probably be me saying, "you're right, but it would be too difficult to fix it." So I'd rather work on something with a better foundation.

I could go back and write FNO, but would it be worth it to fix the foundation of FNO? It would be a waste of time.

I will say

When you read about Jeremy, there is never a point in time where you're cheering him on. You are always disappointed in him. But with Amyrie there is never a point where you're disappointed with her. Also. We are never put into a situation where we see the depth of Greyson, Johnathan, Blake, or Nicole's personality.

Because I've worked with MMORPG development I've developed a habit of "patching" things. With an MMORPG you're constantly updating and fixing problems, and so I patched some things in chapter 1 relating to some of the things you brought up.

I'm not satisfied with it for a few reasons. This is meant to be a moment where you're cheering Jeremy on but it does it very poorly because of the fact that the context is missing there. It might work if that whole scene happened later. Amyrie is acting as the antagonist in this instance too, so you should be upset with her. But without the context how can you really grasp the gravity of this situation. Amyrie is a figment of his imagination, so not only would that be weird for anyone walking in, but it would be technically non consensual, and so resisting an urge in that kind of situation would seem admirable. But you don't get that without the context.

Another thing was the fact that he brought up reading books, but he never reads them. No one else even acknowledged that. I would say that in hindsight I am seeing the things you bring up, but there is a language barrier there. Because the way I describe these same problems in of itself, invents simplistic solutions that don't have to upset the entire foundation.

I can go on for hours describing what is happening, what isn't happening, and what should be happening. And yes, it's pretty much the same things you bring up. Because hindsight is 20/20.

 

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