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Author Topic: The Fall of Nations Online  (Read 4013 times)

Lumaria

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2016, 05:00:45 am »
This time you pushed more focus on the real world. Which isn't bad, but these characters really don't beat around the bush. All they are doing is revealing things about other characters and don't have a personality of their own. The Woman in particular just didn't really sit well with me.

She was a character that seemed like an excuse to reveal everything about the main character that we wont get to see directly. When you throw info after info, things start to lose weight.

Things like a character wanting to play god...that seems way too morbid to say so casually. we barely got an idea on why he even entered. I don't know if you thought the opening scene was enough to explain the events, but since you're adding more real life scenes, you could be doing more explaining on what is going on.

Part 1 was ambiguous enough for me to not ask too many questions. It did over-tell but i said that in my review.

Part 2, is now grounding the beginning more. which means any questions that the beginning is creating shouldn't be left unanswered.

Overall, you tend to have this lack of "tactic" when it comes to character dialogue. These characters just don't think twice. Maybe its because you don't feel like you're in their situation personally, and thats why you feel like you can make characters say things they normally wouldn't.

Tara

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2016, 01:29:17 pm »
But I actually have given it some thought. The Woman, Tara, is not actually giving exposition on Keaghan's personality. Really she's just explaining her theory.

spoiler alert: She feels betrayed, and she's angry at Keaghan because he left her for years to develop FNO. And when he gets back she and everyone else is now trapped in this world where evidence continues to pile up on the inside that this isn't an accident. Keaghan is known to be a master at computer sciences so by her standards it should only have taken him days to fix it if it was just a glitch because of her experience with him solving other critical problems.

But I think your right because that's an important theme I need to show more of the real Keaghan in part 1. And I'm sure I can find a way to add more exposition to part 1.

Lumaria

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2016, 12:28:03 am »
The problem is execution. you aren't thinking on how it comes across to the reader.

Because you're throwing this character's opinion around, i get an idea why she's acting that way. but i'm not convinced this person is reacting "normal". I get that she's angry, but where is the act of god? where is the Heartless coming from?

Keep in mind, these characters are bursting out "radical" opinions. You would think someone hearing them would find it irrational or out of line.

John Will

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2016, 06:35:45 pm »
Hello there Tara, I've read through what you've provided so far and I'm here to give some criticism and advice.

Your premise is very interesting. There is so many ways this story can be told to make use of it, but I think the way it is now just isn't paying the premise the homage it deserves.

You're starting the story off when Keaghan is about to go jail, and honestly that's just such a waste. Like Vince Gilligan says (writer of the Emmy award winning teleplay Breaking Bad) you've got to milk all the drama you can in your story, and FNO is big cow.

You should try and focus the first chapter on Keaghan. Save his girlfriend's hate for later. In fact why not even start it just before the logout crisis? This way you can use the chapter to build up on the game itself rather than relying on SAO to fill in all the technical gaps as if everyone has seen it.

Honestly, so far the chapter feels like another take on SAO, but the description suggests otherwise, so my advice is that you turn the description into the first chapter rather than build on it. Also, why use helmets? We've already seen that before, so why not come up with something new? Make the manga it's own story, tell it like it's never been told before. That's the magic of manga.

This story has so much potential, so much MILK! I hope you take my advice and create something fantastic, it really deserves to be and I know you can do it. :)
"...And make use of the life bestowed upon him." - Hi no Tori, Osamu Tezuka

Lumaria

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2016, 07:23:03 am »
I agree that the description was best suited as a 1st chapter rather then being thrown in the middle of it. And i also agree the characters resemble a little on SAO (and Log Horizon).

But there are certain things you don't beat around the bush, and there are things that you don't need to push so hard. If a character feels relatively normal then you don't need to give any heavy details on their background.

If a character is acting irrationally to the point that these characters don't feel very realistic, then thats were some background information can be added. or make another character point out how irrational so that readers don't feel like its not recognized by the author.

You have to be aware of the reader just as much as you are aware of the story. Otherwise, one perfectly planned moment in the story will feel like a big mistake.

Tara

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2016, 06:57:56 pm »
You both have compelled me, Lumaria and John Will. So strongly so I haven't been able to write part 3. Though I have a lot to say I'd rather respond with a chapter.

Lumaria

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2016, 11:17:31 pm »
Think first about what chapter 1 will contain. Get the very basic structure. Beginning is about this, middle is about that, and ending is about something else. Basically break it down. Then try to find the things what bridges the beginning, middle, and end (this is something that you need to focus on considering the track record).

Its all about figuring out if what you are introducing is something that has to be hinted or revealed with more detail.

John Will

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2016, 03:11:14 pm »
@Lumaria: What I mean't was to start from the beginning so there doesn't have to be so much backstory. Good point about being aware of the readers.

@Tara: It's a pleasure  :)
"...And make use of the life bestowed upon him." - Hi no Tori, Osamu Tezuka

Orchid

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2016, 11:45:03 pm »
@Lumaria: What I mean't was to start from the beginning so there doesn't have to be so much backstory. Good point about being aware of the readers.

@Tara: It's a pleasure  :)
yes. We are on the same page.

After reading it. I too believe it could benefit from starting from the very beginning. Feels like we're playing catch up on things that should he obvious.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 12:00:01 am by Orchid »

Tara

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2016, 07:37:03 pm »
I'd like to point out that starting from the beginning is problematic. Either you're expecting large timeskips, watching Tara's boring life at home, or Keaghan being overworked in Korea. Of course, there is drama to be milked out of that time frame if I take it over the course of a few chapters, but that's not what FNO is about. FNO is about the relationship between 3 specific characters and these characters do not communicate until FNO launches (or before FNO is in production). If I put too much focus on before the launch, chapter one will be representing the wrong story.

Furthermore I am not convinced that the words "trapped in an MMORPG" which can be used to describe FNO and SAO are grounds to define FNO as a clone of SAO. How about: "Trapped in an alternate world", now count how many earlier stories SAO is a copy of based on that description. E.g. Futurama, Inception, Alice in Wonderland, Naruto: Road to Ninja, etc. If you think I'm trying to copy SAO, take it from me that I hate SAO. I don't like .hack and I don't like Log Horizon. And not the fanboy hate "aw I wish they would do this". I don't like anything about SAO. I don't like the characters, the game, or the story. FNO is not meant to jump on the MMORPG manga "genre" just to be like SAO or the others. I'm using it as another way to tell my original story: "Dark Lineage", or "Sentiera: Legends" as some may know it.

SAO doesn't own virtual reality and they weren't the first to use it. So I'll use helmets if I want. And I'll use an MMORPG, and I will tell it like it's never been told before.

Also in the past I've met some scrutiny over my practice of describing character's as they speak with gerunds or adverbs in the scripts. The script is for me, not the reader. The reader's not going to see "(Smiling)" in the word bubble. He's going to see the character smile. I assume a week from now I won't know exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it so I'd like to give myself as vivid an image as possible. That's what that means. I remember the quote fondly "if you have to use an adverb to describe a character you're not doing it right". If only I could remember who said that, but since I don't and it's probably how others feel I'd just like to make it clear this is graphic novel. I don't know who writes a script for a narrative, but to each their own. 

Lumaria

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2016, 12:42:20 am »
I'd like to point out that starting from the beginning is problematic. Either you're expecting large timeskips, watching Tara's boring life at home, or Keaghan being overworked in Korea.
Essentially just following the initial success of the MMO and then quickly turning bad right when characters are enjoying the success. And everything leading to the point where Keaghan feels going into the game is the only way to solve the problem. That's it...that is your beginning. And you know whats crazy? That can take up only "half" of a first chapter. Just half. But its recommended to show FNO world at the very very end. Because at least that gives the sense that the first chapter was all exposition and the mainstream chapters are just starting. I know its a habit for shonen to show the gritty action by chapter 1, but not all of them need it. You really don't need to cut that out and throw it in the middle of the story.

All the other details you planned for the past, and such can be expanded in further chapters too. But there is also one vital flaw: You described Tara as boring. There is no redeeming quality of this character at all even before the story begins?

Quote
Of course, there is drama to be milked out of that time frame if I take it over the course of a few chapters, but that's not what FNO is about. FNO is about the relationship between 3 specific characters and these characters do not communicate until FNO launches (or before FNO is in production). If I put too much focus on before the launch, chapter one will be representing the wrong story.
FNO isn't about drama, but you sure use a lot of it, and you just kind of just leave it hanging there without any reason. And there is no real hint that this is something you planned, or this is just you not understanding how stories work. And if its hard to choose between either one, its usually the latter.

These characters would have "had" to communicate at one point. There is an efficient way to introduce characters to the reader as if it was the first time despite them meeting again. And thats if you put them in anormal environment first before throwing them in a crazy turmoil.

 
Quote
Furthermore I am not convinced that the words "trapped in an MMORPG" which can be used to describe FNO and SAO are grounds to define FNO as a clone of SAO. How about: "Trapped in an alternate world", now count how many earlier stories SAO is a copy of based on that description. E.g. Futurama, Inception, Alice in Wonderland, Naruto: Road to Ninja, etc. If you think I'm trying to copy SAO, take it from me that I hate SAO. I don't like .hack and I don't like Log Horizon. And not the fanboy hate "aw I wish they would do this". I don't like anything about SAO. I don't like the characters, the game, or the story. FNO is not meant to jump on the MMORPG manga "genre" just to be like SAO or the others. I'm using it as another way to tell my original story: "Dark Lineage", or "Sentiera: Legends" as some may know it.
Funny you say this Kesashi. Because you essentially started out this story in complete belief of how an MMO works. In fact your characters and system was all derived from the hard-core gamer aspect more than the world. Yuw anted to completely warp ideas of characters contorlling two different Avatars at the same time, you also wanted to focus on the more technical side as well.

You actually admitted that Log Horizon was the main inspiration at the time. Now you're saying you don't like either SAO nor Log Hog Horizon? Now i understand the idea of being trapped in a new world. But MMO adds a distinct complexity. I'm not saying its the most important aspect, but its one of the important aspects by selling the idea that they're in an MMO. you just need those smaller things.

Also, Sentiera was essentially a mess of a story. It was so raw, it had no structure.
Quote
SAO doesn't own virtual reality and they weren't the first to use it. So I'll use helmets if I want. And I'll use an MMORPG, and I will tell it like it's never been told before.
I see you're getting frustrated. but guess who told vampire stories like never before? Twilight. Guess who was inspired by that and made a fanfiction on it? 50 shades of grey.

Everytime people try to reinvent the way of story telling it doesn't go well. Story telling has been for centuries. Don't try to reinvent something so hardwired.
Quote
Also in the past I've met some scrutiny over my practice of describing character's as they speak with gerunds or adverbs in the scripts. The script is for me, not the reader. The reader's not going to see "(Smiling)" in the word bubble. He's going to see the character smile. I assume a week from now I won't know exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it so I'd like to give myself as vivid an image as possible. That's what that means. I remember the quote fondly "if you have to use an adverb to describe a character you're not doing it right". If only I could remember who said that, but since I don't and it's probably how others feel I'd just like to make it clear this is graphic novel. I don't know who writes a script for a narrative, but to each their own. 

Emotions just shift far too fast, and its harder for people to adjust to it. In fact these characters feel more and more generic each time i read. I can't distinguish a character that is mature and full of potential. If you're not writing for your readers. Why are you sharing the story? That is a very serious question, Kesashi. I'm not kidding here at all. I revise my chapters for the reade, so i can get the best reviews possible. What is motivating you to share this story that you are not intending to be compatible with readers?

John Will

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2016, 03:16:25 am »
@Lumaria: You hit the nail on the head.


@Tara: Other than what Lumaria had to say, all I can add is that originality is the only reason someone should pick up a pen. You shouldn't write if it's not to expand on the world around you, otherwise you're just wasting your precious time on this planet. I don't mean that in a bad way, if you love to write then by all means write! Just "make use of the life bestowed upon" you.
"...And make use of the life bestowed upon him." - Hi no Tori, Osamu Tezuka

Tara

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2016, 05:25:44 pm »
You both have misunderstood me, I'm not trying to reinvent something and I'm not trying to tell SAO how I want things done. I said what I said about Log Horizon a year ago and since then my perspective of it has changed. I am trying to create something different. If FNO existed. I would just read that manga. But I searched, and couldn't find it, so I decided I'll make it. That's why I write. Why would I waste my time writing SAO as if it didn't exist when I could just watch it? Even though I claimed inspiration from Log Horizon back then, it would be different I were working on chapter 2. Given that I'm still on chapter 1 it's hard to say this is the same story it was last year, and It's not.

This was FNO until April 3rd, 2015

"The Fall of Nations Online is a virtual reality MMORPG where players build up small communities into ruling nations. As the nations grow in size and power they also become more volatile. Guilds of players lord over smaller guilds in the land and their guild members makeup the ruling class.

Tara, like all other players finds herself trapped inside the in game world as her avatar, however for some unknown reason she has lost all of her memories of her past within the game and back home. Aided by a very eccentric friend, Tara journeys around the in-game world searching for friends and answers and involuntarily becoming the catalyst that destroys every nation she comes across. "


I would say a few things have changed.

Furthermore, "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”? It was here already, long ago," (Ecclesiastes 1: 9-10) so don't expect too much from originality. I could go so far as to create a new language, make up a new species, new laws of physics, and it would all just waste the reader's time.

Also, Sentieria was written by a child. It's more than half a decade old. Sentieria was the predecessor to Dark Lineage which I've never posted. FNO is based on Dark Lineage which is based on Sentieria. Sentieria became that mess from my obsessive desire to be "original". Capture any ideas you can and hold onto them. If they're your ideas, use them, even if it doesn't make sense cause originality is so precious. Everybody wants to be an OG, right? It's to the point where it's almost unoriginal to try to be "original".

What I said about the script was about formatting, not plot. I am writing for the reader, but it is formatted for me. When I draw, I will be drawing for the reader/viewer. But for now, this needs to work for me most of all. This has nothing to do with plot or characters, this is about structure. I'm not going to sell the script in stores. Is that what you're planning to do?

"Tara's boring life" Is what I said. Tara's life is boring. You're really fixated on this Tara-hate thing. I think Tara has interesting character design. I'm constantly simulating more potent ways to write about her. I'm usually very goal oriented when I write about her, and I see that's a problem. Tara's life is steady. It would awkward to focus on a character with such a steady life for one chapter and then move onto this life or death crisis for the rest for the rest of the story.

John Will

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2016, 09:22:13 pm »
You both have misunderstood me, I'm not trying to reinvent something and I'm not trying to tell SAO how I want things done. I said what I said about Log Horizon a year ago and since then my perspective of it has changed. I am trying to create something different. If FNO existed. I would just read that manga. But I searched, and couldn't find it, so I decided I'll make it. That's why I write. Why would I waste my time writing SAO as if it didn't exist when I could just watch it? Even though I claimed inspiration from Log Horizon back then, it would be different I were working on chapter 2. Given that I'm still on chapter 1 it's hard to say this is the same story it was last year, and It's not.

Fair enough, you've got a point in saying you want to write the manga you haven't come across.
As for your view on originality, I strongly disagree, but if we go back and forth on that argument this will become a discussion on opinions and not FNO.

As you have said that you are planing to draw FNO, would you be making any storyboards/names/neemu in the future? It would be a lot more easier for me to judge that. I will still read FNO regardless, but it is a lot more easier to analyze it as a manga if it were pictures and panels.
"...And make use of the life bestowed upon him." - Hi no Tori, Osamu Tezuka

Tara

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Re: The Fall of Nations Online
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2016, 12:26:53 am »
@John Will

Absolutely, after I'm satisfied with the script for chapter 2 I'll start drawing storyboards, and I'll post them.

 

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