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Author Topic: [+18] Gemstone Gallery  (Read 4170 times)

Lumaria

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2016, 02:18:43 am »
Kesashi, the ultimate goal is to refine your work. But if you are intentionally going for half-baked moe and half-baked something else, its not going to work well.

HematoLogMeIn is right. It looks awkward. I've told you years to choose a style and work from there but to avoid moe like a plague. You chose moe...but you chose that as the basis when moe itself is not a basis to start with.

I don't know though. It's been years and I'm almost convinced deep down you want to troll with us. That you're secretly trying to prove some point but string us along by saying you do want to improve. I don't think I can or anyone in the world can help you unless you truly open up to other ideas outside your head. There are clear paths to improvement and you deny them all because you think you're at that level where you know how to achieve/master style.

Why Moe is the plague

When has there been a good anime or manga that was moe (which is significantly different from chibi)? Moe's ultimate goal is to be cute and see them do cute things. That's why they're designed the way they are. The "good moe" isn't known for great characters, great story or anything like that. They're known for cute fun designs.



But what happens when you try moe and try to add a real story? Hell Girl manga was one of the most awkward things to read. See how serious and yet difficult to appreciate the moe design?

This image gives me the same feeling when I see such an awkward design "choice". Kesashi, you don't know what moe is. You don't know what it means to create your own style. First off, it has to come naturally. Whatever this is, it's not natural, you know how to use outlines, you know how to pencil, so choosing awkward measurements to resemble moe is a choice, not a natural style.


You first have to explore all forms. Find what feels right and what feels most natural and what sparks your creativity. But why Kesashi? Why do I get the feeling all you want to do is just fight conventions and nothing more?


« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 02:50:18 am by Lumaria »

Tara

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #31 on: August 06, 2016, 10:50:16 pm »
"You chose moe...but you chose that as the basis when moe itself is not a basis to start with"

Slow down, Loren. I'm going to stop you right there. Loren, I told you about three different references for two different pictures. The references for the artwork of Tamera (the purple girl) are three different american artists. The reference for the daughter was that moe guide book. The reason why I used that guide book was because I was drawing a character who was made to be ironically cute. Her cuteness plays a part in her character design so I decided to take some pointers from an artist who studied the cuter styles manga artists use. Furthermore I have been dedicated to illustration for over 10 years. Moe is not the start of anything for me.

My goal is not to half ass anything. If you're going to insult my artwork that way and twist my words to further your argument you could at least have the courtesy to read my post.

I really don't care what you think of moe. It's not my job to defend other manga artist's styles and it's not the style I adhere to.

"You don't know what it means to create your own style."
You know you're quite the critic for someone who can't draw. You don't know what goes into each picture I draw. Don't fool yourself into thinking you're in my head because you looked at a few pictures I drew.

"It's been years and I'm almost convinced deep down you want to troll with us. That you're secretly trying to prove some point but string us along by saying you do want to improve."

You're right. I'm just a troll. I don't really want to improve even after all these years. Remember the first picture I posted on MR in 2013. I remember I worked hard on it to impress the other raiders and I had all the time in the world to work on it.

Spoiler (hover to show)

And then that one picture I drew just last year as a gift for a family member. It was painfully rushed and procrastinated. I had only a few hours to finish it since I always struggle to find inspiration for these kinds of things.

Spoiler (hover to show)

All these years and not a dash of improvement. Maybe you disagree because I'm comparing two pictures that are attempting two different things. Obviously this rushed picture could never compare to the image made to impress people like you. Why don't I compare it to a more recent picture stylized the same way. Like this one:

Spoiler (hover to show)

I'm embarrassed to show it, just look at that pocket. Oh but it's hard to see the true lack of improvement because that one is digital. There has to be one on picture we can see. How about this one

Spoiler (hover to show)

Oh but I can't show you that one it's in color! And that's the one where I messed up the kanji. How silly of me. This one's much better. At least I fixed the kanji, but nothing else improved

Spoiler (hover to show)

No, no, not this one either. It's not finished! I never finish anything. How about we go back to realistic image. This one's recent enough to excuse it not being finished.

Spoiler (hover to show)

Surely by now you'll understand I am an internet troll, have been since 2013 and will always be. Becoming an illustrator who provides quality work is obviously the last thing I would ever want to do with my life.

Oh I finally found a recent picture I can compare it to. It's not in color, it's cartoony and it's

Spoiler (hover to show)

Oh wait, no that one's from 5th grade. I'm so sorry, It's so hard to tell the difference between my 2016 artwork and my middle school artwork. Look at me, showing off all my artwork. You'd think this thread were my personal gallery or something.

Needless to say I'm incredibly angry that you would even insinuate something like that.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 10:53:20 pm by Tara »

HematoLogMeIn

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2016, 11:41:06 pm »
I...just, yikes. This is getting out of hand.

Look, Tara, for what it's worth, I see that there is progress over the years, and I also know what it's like to pour yourself into your work. I completely understand your anger at Lumaria's statements against you and your frustrations. I can say openly that I feel that she crossed a line in making a personal mark against you rather than keeping it strictly about your art.

Still, was that jab back at her own artwork really necessary? Someone can have perception of artistic value and not have the hand-eye coordination skills nor the practice to be able to create fine works themselves, and that doesn't devalue their critique (especially when they have about two people agreeing with them.)

I'm sitting here feeling like I should say something and I've tried writing this message about four different ways and I still can't get it out right. (Sighs heavily.) Please, won't the two of you take a chill pill?

Lumaria

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2016, 12:47:24 am »
Here are the reasons why I believe what I believe about you, Kesashi. You can be mad, but in the end of the day. I feel like I humor you too long. So I'm now going to be upfront.

#1) You avoid basic, simple questions like a plague. Questions that help us help you better. You twist the question in your head so far that you claim you can't answer it, it's impossible.

#2) Everything that doesnt work is because of a conscious choice. It's not like "I didn't mean to do this that makes it look awkward." Or "I didn't realize I wasn't adding this." When you say things like style and such. You make it look like you have a basic understanding of art. Even in your stories, there's confusions, there's lack of though. Which leads me to... 

#3) You've blatantly lied. There were times when you said one thing and then say the complete opposite. Example: you've made a big point saying FNO isnt trying to be manga. And then you say things like I want Tara because I wanted to make a Manga with a black female protagonist because it's never been done.

#4) You try to classify me as a type or say something that makes it all seem like I'm just one of the masses. But you also constantly put yourself in a situation. For example  you mentioned multiple times about the problem of "impressing" me. Honestly I get impressed by  improvement in general.  It doesn't take a lot to impress me.

So I'm tired of going through the motions with you. For the record,I don't share my art. I'm conscious about it but I look at it and I try my absolute best. Not a good artist?

Because I don't color with color pencils and that's all you do? I'm focused on an entirely different area. I don't complain about your coloring. It's great coloring. But I see a lot of bad proportions. And at this point it's intentional.

But I definitely haven't shown all my art. I work very hard on other things. I'm also actually making a living.

And agin. I don't care that you're mad. Actually the only time when you are fully sincere is when you're mad. Any other time, it's going through the motions and just laying it out.

So I rather stay angry forever if that means hitting the heart of the problem. I don't think you are a complete troll (at least to your art) but to me and maybe others? I don't think at this point someone said anything to you that you fully taken in and learned from it. At least at this point. Everytime I'm about to leave for good, you give me the humble act and then suddenly try to change the situation, but when I decide to give you another chance, its the same vague process that takes forever to move from.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 12:49:48 am by Lumaria »

Tara

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2016, 01:42:58 am »
#1 If I do, I don't do it on purpose.

#2 There's the instant assumption that it doesn't work. What I'm telling you is I'm in full control of the pictures I draw as to what they'll look like. I didn't just throw some pencils at a paper and end up with that. Everything is a conscious decision. In order to avoid what you say doesn't work in the next picture I would need a reason to believe it doesn't work and then I would consciously avoid it. You're skipping that step and assuming what you see that "doesn't work" is an accident.

3# That wasn't a lie. That was me not knowing what FNO was. I'm sorry I didn't document every time I changed my mind on anything over the past few years I've been working on FNO. My brain doesn't produce logs like a computer program otherwise I'd post them for you. I said that FNO wasn't a manga meaning it wasn't hindered to anything that defines manga. Because the fact is I'm not going to japan, I'm not going to market it in japan, but many will perceive it as manga. I talked a lot about how crippling it is to not know what your story is.

4# The fact is, you read stories differently than most people do. You're more critical. And I consider you to be more knowledgeable of literature than me. For this reason, I don't consider myself someone who, while speaking from the heart, is going to impress with any literature of mine. That's why I said what I said about impressing you individually.

One of those pictures was vector art and another was ink. Surely colored pencil is all I do. It is my favorite medium, and it was introduced to me by some other artists. A lot of artists love colored pencil. I also like to work with modelling clay and I'm majoring in painting. Recently I spent all my money on a pressure sensitive digital drawing pad. I've been having some fun with that one.

It's not that cyclical. Honestly. You're just being dramatic. If you want change, don't just tell me where change ought to happen. Tell me how and why.

If I don't agree with your reason why, don't expect change to happen. Your reason why is always an attack. You're so aggressive about it and the aggression starts with a misunderstanding and if I don't tackle the misunderstanding first, I'm walking into a meaningless argument. But I don't want to look at the deeper misunderstanding first because you're attacking me so I want to attack back.

Lumaria

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #35 on: August 07, 2016, 10:52:10 am »
#1 If I do, I don't do it on purpose.
look back at everytime I asked you a question and you couldn't respond or refused to respond (there were times when you flat out ignore a question)
Quote
#2 There's the instant assumption that it doesn't work. What I'm telling you is I'm in full control of the pictures I draw as to what they'll look like. I didn't just throw some pencils at a paper and end up with that. Everything is a conscious decision. In order to avoid what you say doesn't work in the next picture I would need a reason to believe it doesn't work and then I would consciously avoid it. You're skipping that step and assuming what you see that "doesn't work" is an accident.
No assumption. You did and it hasn't worked.
 Dark hair, purple girl picture. Her moe proportions don't work at all. She looks like you're trying to aim for realism and not manga.

Every manga/anime style artwork you've ever done had that same issue with proportions, and they were always moe-like. Not full moe, but moe-like. Your characters had childlike proportions even though they had aspects of adults.  It's like looking at SAO fan art before it existed.
Quote
3# That wasn't a lie. That was me not knowing what FNO was. I'm sorry I didn't document every time I changed my mind on anything over the past few years I've been working on FNO. My brain doesn't produce logs like a computer program otherwise I'd post them for you. I said that FNO wasn't a manga meaning it wasn't hindered to anything that defines manga. Because the fact is I'm not going to japan, I'm not going to market it in japan, but many will perceive it as manga. I talked a lot about how crippling it is to not know what your story is.
My brain doesn't produce logs automatically either. But I at least let people know when I changed my mind when I already revealed too much about the old concept.

You have to at least remember what you told people so when you change your mind, it isn't a curve ball.
Quote
4# The fact is, you read stories differently than most people do. You're more critical. And I consider you to be more knowledgeable of literature than me. For this reason, I don't consider myself someone who, while speaking from the heart, is going to impress with any literature of mine. That's why I said what I said about impressing you individually
Impressing me or anyone is showing improvement. I'm not asking you to feel your story.

And yes, I am critical. But trust me I don't need to be to tell you what needs work. And others point it out.


Quote
It's not that cyclical. Honestly. You're just being dramatic. If you want change, don't just tell me where change ought to happen. Tell me how and why.
I have. But Kesashi after so many years of humoring allowing you to brush off the most important critique (and yet still act like you want it when I'm about to leave) I'm tired. I see the same flaws, I give the same advice and then you try to do it again and then after 4 or 5 attempts you say you're listening but then I see you revert back and defend it.

I've explained why already. I can't explain how to fix it because there are dozens of ways to fix it.

Quote
If I don't agree with your reason why, don't expect change to happen. Your reason why is always an attack.
I'm at the point where I know you know better. I know you can change and so do you. But it's no longer about actually improving anymore.

When you do try to defend something. It comes down to expressing yourself. That's the child's excuse. You can always express yourself even by trying something you may not agree with at first.
Quote
You're so aggressive about it and the aggression starts with a misunderstanding and if I don't tackle the misunderstanding first, I'm walking into a meaningless argument. But I don't want to look at the deeper misunderstanding first because you're attacking me so I want to attack back.
like i said, I'm tired of humoring you. It's not even Kesashi. You're not 100% honest. I'm tired of the vicious cycle, and I refuse to be part of the cycle you created. Something has to give.

If you were 100%, tried it out and then proven to me that it didn't work for you. Then we can move forward. But I don't want this horrible cycle.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 11:01:03 am by Lumaria »

Tara

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #36 on: August 07, 2016, 01:35:39 pm »
Please explain to me first why I need to prove anything to you. You've made it very clear you don't care about me. You don't care how I feel. Who are you?

The characters that I drew in the old days were just about as young as you say they appear. I was interested in drawing children at that time so I studied ways to make them look younger. The purple girl, Tamera, was not drawn using any moe proportions. It was drawn using proportions taught to me by a fashion designer I picked up from a time when I was interested in fashion design.



This is a picture I posted to MR a long time ago showing improvement. This was a child character I designed where the name "Kesashi" comes from. My old artwork looked nothing like moe. The redraw uses techniques from that moe guide, and it was actually drawn on top of the body of a real child.





I'm not insisting that because it was traced over a child that it was done correctly, but moe is not the source of whatever you see as a weakness in my art.

HematoLogMeIn

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2016, 05:41:06 pm »
My old artwork looked nothing like moe.

Just sayin, both the before and after picture you have there look pretty moe to me. Big eyes, small mouth, small nose. If you're trying to say that your style isn't moe, why give us an example in which:

The redraw uses techniques from that moe guide

I mean, seriously? "MY ART ISN'T MOE! LOOK AT THIS I DREW WITH A MOE GUIDE!" Um, what?

I grant that your purple haired (and pink haired) girl are considerably less moe, but the eyes kind of remind me of BRATZ dolls with slightly less puffy lips. To be fair, that is an American style (and didn't you say you used two American resources on the purple haired girl at least?), and moe isn't exactly the right word for it, but there are similarities between that style and moe except that American style doesn't exactly have a name, although it's used for things like BRATZ and Monster High, which brings us back around to the discussion at hand. Even within those Americanized styles, let me pull up an example (I believe this is a DeviantArt image by one Thuddleston. I hope they'll forgive me by way of fair use for the purpose of teaching) :



Now watch as I illustrate why I made my earlier point:
Try sketching a basic full front head and face in your style, and then next to it, draw the same head shape, but instead make the middle of the eyes align with the dead center of the face and compare the results.



The yellow lines represent the top, bottom, and center of the head (note that the hair is somewhat volumous in the back, hence I chose where the top of the head should be, accounting for that hair takes up space.) I even added crossbars to ensure that my center line fell on the midway point between the top/bottom lines. As we can see:

" I divide the face into 2. In the proportions used for the real face the tip of eyebrows begins at the tip of the middle section. In the proportions I use, the tip of the eyes begins at the tip of the of the bottom section."

It's quite similar to this, but the tip of the eyebrows do not begin at the tip of the middle section (although you did never answer my question: "But, wait, if you're dividing into halves, how is there a "middle" section? Unless you're talking about the center line?" so, I can't be sure.) Looking back, you were likely referring to the vertical "thirds" or "fifths" of a face, except as you can see in this example, those were not the vertical proportions used to achieve this style. This proves that you blend realism with something that isn't.

In either case, this...let's call it Ameri-Moe style still receives plenty of criticism for being very anatomically impossible, but it's designed and stylized to appeal to kids, which brings us back around to the point of "wait, I thought you wanted a mature story?" from Lumaria's argument. These kind of proportions for an adult simply do not work. They make them look like a young teenager at best. If "young teenager" is what you're going for, by all means, go ahead and use this style. It works for that. The problem is that it seemed like somewhere Lumaria seemed to be going on the assumption that purple-hair was supposed to be an adult and you never denied that and so the assumption continues. Hence why she made her original statement regarding realism, which you declined because "style". (Starting to see the cycle now?)

She has a point in that you parry off any kind of criticism because "but muh style". A glaringly obvious point. Again, I'm all for style and self-expression, but it's about balancing and making sure that things go together. Your realistic coloring style does indeed look very awkward with this current style. Realistic coloring + unrealistic proportions = wtf? If you went for flat color or cel-shading style, it probably wouldn't have been received as "awkward". But, you know, it doesn't look awkward to you, and yet if three people telling you otherwise gets the reply of "but muh style", it doesn't fix the problem.

I resign to that you're going to do what you want, and I'm fine with that. You do art for you, not for us. I accept that. However, not all art is this subjective thing, and some things can be objective, and when receiving critique, looking at the critique through your eyes and not the eyes of the critic helps nothing. Ask yourself "why did they say that?" See, the point is to get you looking at it in more than one way, because if you keep looking at it one way, progress will be extremely slow. Trust me; I speak from experience as an artist in that regard. Sometimes things just don't work. You can only learn anything once you accept that there is much that you don't know. You can't just learn what's convenient to you; you also must learn things you don't want to, because they'll improve your work overall. That does not mean copying other styles. That means learning principles, concepts, and applications of those things. That's all we've been asking, and you've failed to recognize that, which is why this wildfire of a discussion keeps raging.

Tara

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2016, 06:26:56 pm »
Still, was that jab back at her own artwork really necessary? Someone can have perception of artistic value and not have the hand-eye coordination skills nor the practice to be able to create fine works themselves, and that doesn't devalue their critique (especially when they have about two people agreeing with them.)

It's one thing to have a perception of art, it's another thing to have people agree with you, but all she's doing is attacking me. "You don't know what it means to create your own style."

You what that kind of statement says. Shut up child, you don't know what you're talking about. Don't act like this is something you take seriously or intend to make a profession out of. You haven't studied, practiced and invested anything into this. I don't even need to be a great artist to tell you how badly you're in over your head. I don't even know your real name, but I know more about you than you do from a few pictures you've shown me.

I have my own philosophies of what makes quality art. For instance I showed the huge time bracket between my 5th grade artwork and 2013 artwork and the minimal improvement in illustration skill. But then we talk about 2013-2014 and it's like a whole different person drew it. My art wasn't just criticized when I came to MR, I was also taught illustration theory. The fact is I practiced religiously from when I first began drawing until I came there, but practice isn't what makes great art, it's a difference in thinking. Sometimes in practice we see slow improvements in thinking that cause us to create more precise art, but art theory skips the trial and error we find in practice and gives us the boost we need. Things like proportions, we could've found on our own by studying people for years or we could ask google and save time.

Psychologists have even studied the changes in art skill in children as they grow older. I'm sure it has everything to do with their cognitive ability. Think about how long people have been drawing before one point perspective was invented according to historians. It wasn't that people couldn't draw the illusion of one point perspective, they just didn't know about it. Just like a camera uses math to create pictures of the real world, art can be brought down to a science. You wouldn't tell an aspiring engineer, you just have to practice. You would tell him, you need to go to school and you need to learn how to engineer whatever it is you're engineering.

Imagine if I were a software engineer and Loren told me I don't know what a computer program is, while she doesn't even know what hexadecimal is.

Me being more skilled at illustration shows superior thought process for illustration. The fact is Loren is taking a position as the superior mind and her superiority is the only evidence for my inferiority. And it's rough for her because I'm just not convinced. I do consider myself an authority on art and art theory. But I don't consider myself an authority because of my own understanding, I consider myself that because of the people I have behind me. In the same manner she has you and other members agreeing with her. I have people like E.H. Gombrich and Leonardo da Vinci agreeing with me. Rather, that I agree with them.

I'm not fighting that the picture doesn't look awkward to you. It may look that way. I want you to tell me it looks awkward. Please tell me you don't like it. I don't want everyone telling me my art is amazing and then my employer tells me it's awkward, and then I'm fired. I'd rather everyone tell me it's awkward and my employer loves it. But he loves it because everyone else opened my eyes.

What I don't want you to tell me is that I'm not an artist. That I haven't been doing this my whole life. And that I don't take this seriously. This is not the time to psychoanalyze me and demean me. There's a time for that. But not here.

HematoLogMeIn

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2016, 06:43:32 pm »
Imagine if I were a software engineer and Loren told me I don't know what a computer program is, while she doesn't even know what hexadecimal is.

I agree with that what she said was a little out of line, but this analogy isn't accurate to the situation. It'd be more akin to that you're a software engineer, she tries your program, and says "hey, this doesn't work". She doesn't have to know the exact coding error. What matters is that there's a bug.

Tara

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2016, 06:51:22 pm »
I see I'm confusing you Hemato.

Read closely

" I divide the face into 2. In the proportions used for the real face the tip of eyebrows begins at the tip of the middle section. In the proportions I use, the tip of the eyes begins at the tip of the of the bottom section."

Closer

" I divide the face into 2. In the proportions used for the real face the tip of eyebrows begins at the tip of the middle section. In the proportions I use, the tip of the eyes begins at the tip of the of the bottom section."

Closer

" I divide the face into 2. In the proportions used for the real face the tip of eyebrows begins at the tip of the middle section. In the proportions I use, the tip of the eyes begins at the tip of the of the bottom section."

Notice how this two sentences make that distinction this means the subject is different than the previous sentence. In the orange sentence I talked about the "real face". In the green sentence I talked about "the proportions I use". I promise I'm not a liar like Lumaria says, I'm very careful about what I say because I foresee these misconceptions.

You also said you were confused about the references for that picture of the purple girl. I talked about 2 of the references in my first defense on the attacks against my person. But I told Loren that there were three. The third one is one I don't like to talk about because I'm so incredibly inspired by him it's embarrassing, Black Fenrir. There are some things I don't love about his art which is why I don't aspire to simply reproduce everything he makes, but there's still a lot I love about it. His art is incredibly and consistently stylized.

The only art that is objective is commercialized art. If this were a commissioned piece, there would be a much greater place for anyone else to tell me how it ought to be done. Since I'm the commissioner, no one but me knows best how it ought to look. I understand art can be functional and as of now this image serves the function of whatever I want it to do. Not all of my images are proportioned this way. Many of my vector illustrations are cell shaded. This one happens to be what it is because I wanted it to be. I'm not saying that it looks good because I say so. I'm saying that this isn't an accident. And more importantly, this isn't a weakness or a hindrance.

HematoLogMeIn

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #41 on: August 07, 2016, 07:59:58 pm »
(Goes to look up Black Fenrir)

Ah, okay. I'm starting to get a lot more of what you mean. I'd still say your proportions might need a little more tweaking to work, but then again, some of this artist's work, although stylized, still looks "wrong" to me in some areas. Some of them are gorgeous, don't get me wrong, but there's a stray work here and there where the forehead is far too massive or the jawline is ridiculously thin and the cheek has all but disappeared.

Again, though, it appears that the illustrator studied a lot from life before stylizing it as far as they have. I can't possibly imagine that they just picked up a pencil and started working a bit in that style and magically got it without drawing from life first to gain an artistic sense of "why" things fall where they do. As you said, you feel that art is about the cognative, and how better to understand the cognative than to study that which you are stylizing so that when you stylize it, it comes out looking stylized instead of wonky.

Lumaria

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #42 on: August 08, 2016, 12:46:41 am »
It's one thing to have a perception of art, it's another thing to have people agree with you, but all she's doing is attacking me. "You don't know what it means to create your own style."
When you dodge an issue with "My style" That's where things go bad. When you scoff perfectly valid advise, things go bad. And it doesn't even have to be "my" advice.
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You what that kind of statement says. Shut up child, you don't know what you're talking about. Don't act like this is something you take seriously or intend to make a profession out of. You haven't studied, practiced and invested anything into this. I don't even need to be a great artist to tell you how badly you're in over your head. I don't even know your real name, but I know more about you than you do from a few pictures you've shown me.
You're absolutely crazy if you think the earlier statement means that. Ive never called you a child. But there are times when you do act like one.

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I have my own philosophies of what makes quality art. For instance I showed the huge time bracket between my 5th grade artwork and 2013 artwork and the minimal improvement in illustration skill. But then we talk about 2013-2014 and it's like a whole different person drew it. My art wasn't just criticized when I came to MR, I was also taught illustration theory. The fact is I practiced religiously from when I first began drawing until I came there, but practice isn't what makes great art, it's a difference in thinking. Sometimes in practice we see slow improvements in thinking that cause us to create more precise art, but art theory skips the trial and error we find in practice and gives us the boost we need. Things like proportions, we could've found on our own by studying people for years or we could ask google and save time.
I agree that practice doesn't equal improvement. Someone can be doing the same thing over and over. So something needs to change in terms of improvement. Studying and research and doing references is actually expected if you want to improve.
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Psychologists have even studied the changes in art skill in children as they grow older. I'm sure it has everything to do with their cognitive ability. Think about how long people have been drawing before one point perspective was invented according to historians. It wasn't that people couldn't draw the illusion of one point perspective, they just didn't know about it. Just like a camera uses math to create pictures of the real world, art can be brought down to a science. You wouldn't tell an aspiring engineer, you just have to practice. You would tell him, you need to go to school and you need to learn how to engineer whatever it is you're engineering.
But let's say you're trying to invent something. That's a more fitting analogy here. There's function, there's practicality.

Does it function? If I tell you it doesn't, you'll just get mad and scoff everything off. It's not about my pride being compromised, its about yours.

What gets me mad isn't just that you don't listen. That it's this vicious cycle of giving you the benefit of the doubt and you always have this desire to feel like you're ahead of the game. And once I give it, there's this obstacle between you and your mind. for some reason you act like we're making progress but how fast are you to hitting that reset button?
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Imagine if I were a software engineer and Loren told me I don't know what a computer program is, while she doesn't even know what hexadecimal is.

Back to the invention analogy. invention or lack of function despite everything that you added into the design of your invention being "intentional". Let's say you have a secret to this beautiful purpose but so much of the flaws get in the way of seeing it.

You should be forthcoming in what you want to achieve not just that what you did was "intentional" so we can give a better responce.

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Me being more skilled at illustration shows superior thought process for illustration.
That isn't sound logic at all.

First of all, I haven't drawn in a while, that much is true. I do however look at art everyday and see what they wanted ti achieve, what methods rhey used, so on and so forth.

For my art, I focus on the shape and form of my characters. But keep in mind I'm also fully aware of my flaws in terms of visual art, more than others are aware of. I refuse to do color something in by hand because it masks the flaws. But also because I don't aim for that. 

You are a great colorist. Are you a better "illustrator". Hipocritical at its finest. Because you made a big deal about art not being objective unless comissioned.
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The fact is Loren is taking a position as the superior mind and her superiority is the only evidence for my inferiority. And it's rough for her because I'm just not convinced. I do consider myself an authority on art and art theory. But I don't consider myself an authority because of my own understanding, I consider myself that because of the people I have behind me. In the same manner she has you and other members agreeing with her. I have people like E.H. Gombrich and Leonardo da Vinci agreeing with me. Rather, that I agree with them.
I don't consider myself an authority because other people agree with me. They're just stating what they see as I can only state what I see. I had teachers who were very strict on the things I wanted to achieve, I have a passion as much as you do believe it or not. I had to train my eye and I still do. Problem is I have a bigger life than I would like to share here.but I don't need my hands to prove I have a trained eye.

But here's the difference. To you this is pride. I have my pride, you have yours. You want to know why I see you as a child now than ever before? Because when I do actually treat you like an adult and give you sound advice (that anyone can give you. It's not primo grade-A secret methods) You instigate. You give such a bland casual "I don't care" responce.

And you always defend something with a theory or odd interpretation. And then at the last possible moment, you pull out. You act humble and say you are ready for feedback. And then when we give it another try, its the same thing all over again. That is the cycle. I don't create the cycle. You do.

Please explain to me first why I need to prove anything to you. You've made it very clear you don't care about me. You don't care how I feel. Who are you?
Because you look like the most stubborn artist on the face of the earth. And it's not about proving it to "me". Prove it to others and yourself.

In what way should I care about you? I don't want anything bad to happen to you. I definitely want you to succeed in life including art as a profession. In fact i would leave right here and now if I truly didn't care about you in that aspect.

Do you want me to care for you as a friend? As an equal? My trust in you has been compromised for either. And deservingly so. Ive given you so much benefit of the doubt, more than anyone else. Your child-like responses come from you. So if you want me to change my mind about these things (which an adult would definitely be able to do) then maybe give more mature responces, maybe be fully honest. Because it's not a judging contest.

Note that I'm not asking you to agree with me, do as I say or anything like that? Oh, and if the 1% chance you think about saying something like "I don't need to prove anything to you!" That enforces even more child like behavior. But here I go again saying 1% when we both know it's higher.
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The characters that I drew in the old days were just about as young as you say they appear. I was interested in drawing children at that time so I studied ways to make them look younger. The purple girl, Tamera, was not drawn using any moe proportions. It was drawn using proportions taught to me by a fashion designer I picked up from a time when I was interested in fashion design.

And why do I remember a completely different tune from what you were saying before. You didn't say any of this when it mattered most.

Remember when I said "If you want to achieve more mature style than you should make the proportions more realistic". You didn't say "in this one case, I was taking advise from a fashion artist and that's why she looks like this".

Back in MR (specifically in Sentieria days), you had characters with profiles with their age. You had some of these characters with full on abs and giant weapons like a typical Shonen only with the problem of looking incredibly moe (like Sword Art Online) including some with facial hair. And an interest in drawing manga/anime children and making them younger is indeed moe. A lot of moe characters are children or act like one.

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This is a picture I posted to MR a long time ago showing improvement. This was a child character I designed where the name "Kesashi" comes from. My old artwork looked nothing like moe. The redraw uses techniques from that moe guide, and it was actually drawn on top of the body of a real child.

I'm not insisting that because it was traced over a child that it was done correctly, but moe is not the source of whatever you see as a weakness in my art.
And yet...why do I see moe proportions even outside of the comparison given. Why haven't I seen you draw a full-fledged teenager or adult with teen/adult proportions? Dark hair purple girl is nice, still child like though. the Catholic-like drawing of a mother and child is close, but that one in particular looks like a one-off. You haven't shown anyone here.

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I'm not fighting that the picture doesn't look awkward to you. It may look that way. I want you to tell me it looks awkward. Please tell me you don't like it. I don't want everyone telling me my art is amazing and then my employer tells me it's awkward, and then I'm fired. I'd rather everyone tell me it's awkward and my employer loves it. But he loves it because everyone else opened my eyes.
we wouldn't be in this situation if that's what you really wanted.

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What I don't want you to tell me is that I'm not an artist. That I haven't been doing this my whole life. And that I don't take this seriously. This is not the time to psychoanalyze me and demean me. There's a time for that. But not here.
No one is saying that. You are free to interpret it that way. Remember, I'll interpret you however YOU want me to. If you give me child like responces, I'll definitely see that as invitation to see you as a child.

But no, no one is saying that. I definitely think you were trolling me. I definitely think you disagreed for defying conventions and only for that. I think you want to challenge all conventions, and all forms.You remain unconvinced for the most basic things. You're thought process has been compromised at least when it comes to reading a perfectly valid piece of advice from me.

I'm not sorry for making you mad. I hope you stay mad if it makes you honest about your art, what your intentions and further. Because you just proven here how you could've been more honest about your intentions and goals but had to have a blowout first to get there.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 12:58:52 am by Lumaria »

Tara

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #43 on: August 08, 2016, 11:37:14 am »
Your eyes are low.. That never happens.
Low? Are you referring to the fact that they're taking space away from the cheeks. The foundation was stylized, so I know her eyes are digging into her cheeks. I've used similar proportions for anime facial features.

This is what I said to start this. All I did was assess where he was concerned. I was not being condescending. I was genuinely curious what he didn't like about it. Then it sounded like he thought that was an accident. I told him it wasn't. Please explain to me where in that you saw me saying it looks good because I say so.

"Are you referring to. . "
Please be more specific

"The foundation was stylized" This is how it was meant to look. I'm sorry if you don't think it looks good. If I want it to look more appealing to you in the future, know that I can because I have control over what ends up on the paper.

This is an issue for a while where you generalized manga to have low and puffy cheeks. You originally gave your characters an appearance of toddlers. You haven't posted much since.

I recommend looking at manga such as Akumetsu and Gantz (the later chapters).

If you're going for a sense of realism, and a more mature style than definitely make the facial proportions right (and make sure the face is also proportioned to their body. No toddler face, adolescent bodies)

"You, you, you." What about the picture? Oh but I'm a liar when I say:

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What I don't want you to tell me is that I'm not an artist. That I haven't been doing this my whole life. And that I don't take this seriously. This is not the time to psychoanalyze me and demean me. There's a time for that. But not here.

Notice how short my reply is. And how all I do is defend myself. I didn't say anything about the picture.

Generalized? I knew there were other styles, but I chose to draw that style. Incidentally, I don't draw much these days.

Please explain to me, how a decision to stylize something is argument that it looks good. Do you think I'm stupid? "Hey I don't like that picture." "It's stylized." "Oh well I love that picture then." Is that what you think I was expecting?

I defy you to offer me one point where I told Johnny his opinion was wrong and he had no right to make it. I defy you to offer me any point where I did anything other than defend myself as an artist.

"Does it function? If I tell you it doesn't, you'll just get mad and scoff everything off. It's not about my pride being compromised, its about yours."

I defy you to offer me one point where I did this. You don't just tell me it doesn't function. You tell me it doesn't function. . . because you suck. And then I say. I don't suck. But somehow you think I'm saying yes it does function.

"Back in MR (specifically in Sentieria days), you had characters with profiles with their age. You had some of these characters with full on abs and giant weapons like a typical Shonen only with the problem of looking incredibly moe (like Sword Art Online) including some with facial hair. And an interest in drawing manga/anime children and making them younger is indeed moe. A lot of moe characters are children or act like one. "

This is a lie. I'm almost completely certain I've never drawn facial hair in my entire life. If I have, you haven't seen it. I do recognize the abs one and someone gave me reviews on that one and I conceded. Baby-faced tiny hands. I didn't refute it. It was a mistake. This was drawn in a time when my artwork was an accident. I drew a lot, but some images weren't as presentable. Whatever appeared on MR was what won the lottery in my sketchbooks. Now I post the only things in my sketchbook.

Spoiler (hover to show)

This means I was almost helpless to fix it on my own. I remember researching stronger chins in afterwords even though I'm sure the next picture I posted was a female. 99% of everything I draw is female which is why I highly doubt there was facial hair on anything.

Spoiler (hover to show)
this picture just taught me how to draw ringlets again. . .

Eventually though I did apply that chin knowledge to something. Even the woman has a non-pointed chin.

Remember when I said "If you want to achieve more mature style than you should make the proportions more realistic". You didn't say "in this one case, I was taking advise from a fashion artist and that's why she looks like this".

Yes. I did say that. I didn't say it was the fashion designer's fault. But I was taking advice from him.

"I'm not sorry for making you mad. I hope you stay mad if it makes you honest about your art, what your intentions and further. Because you just proven here how you could've been more honest about your intentions and goals but had to have a blowout first to get there."

I love you too. But again I defy you to offer me one point where I have been dishonest about my intentions. I'm not afraid to go back to my first posts and extrapolate. I don't know about you, however.

"Do you want me to care for you as a friend? As an equal? My trust in you has been compromised for either. And deservingly so. Ive given you so much benefit of the doubt, more than anyone else. Your child-like responses come from you. So if you want me to change my mind about these things (which an adult would definitely be able to do) then maybe give more mature responces, maybe be fully honest. Because it's not a judging contest. "

Well that ultimately depends if you can read or not. Which I've given you the benefit of the doubt that if you can write you ought to be able to read, but you've broken my trust on that a few too many times. But let's be adult about this. Please direct me to any child like responses and I will concede since you're the adult here and I'm the child I wouldn't even be able to tell you if they're childish or not, that's up to your judgement.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 11:42:27 am by Tara »

Tara

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Re: Gemstones desu
« Reply #44 on: August 08, 2016, 03:58:32 pm »
Actually I have drawn facial hair. I've drawn portraits of Jesus Christ. But I never posted those to MR.

Spoiler (hover to show)
This was done in 2012. Eyes look low? Looking moe?

Spoiler (hover to show)

I forgot about that. There's a finished version of the second one in colored pencil, but I don't have it.

 

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