Author Topic: . (Read 4188 times)

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2016, 12:49:40 pm »

Quote from: Tara on August 05, 2016, 12:11:11 pm

but instead of dividing the face into 3 sections, I divide the face into 2. In the proportions used for the real face the tip of eyebrows begins at the tip of the middle section.

But, wait, if you're dividing into halves, how is there a "middle" section? Unless you're talking about the center line? I'll assume that's what you meant...

Anyway, going based on that, that would explain why the eyes seem so low. Putting the eyebrows, rather than the eyes, at the center of the face makes the forehead look way too massive, hence why the eyes appeared so low to us. For the more pointed chin you gave that character, frankly moe style will not work right. I still strongly suggest that you at least sketch, only with a pencil, not really messing around with anything, but just sketch a normal full front face in your style, and then beside it sketch one where the center line, rather than serving as the bottom of the eyebrow, instead serves as the middle of the eye.

Anime style is simplified and idealized human form, so while it can be fun to try to dabble with moe, it's a whole nother art form with a completely different set of proportions, down to heads tall and the size of the hand.

Another problem with trying to go for something more moe is your coloring style itself. You do a soft transition colored pencil style rather than cell shading, which doesn't agree well with moe for what it is. Again, anime style is a simplified and idealized human form, nothing more, nothing less. It still follows a lot of the basic rules of anatomy. Moe is simply further stylization, but before you can style it and make it look right, it's a good idea to understand what it is that you're stylizing.

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #16 on:** August 06, 2016, 01:59:16 am »

I suppose as someone who also understands self-expression, I have a certain level of respect for that decision. I don't want to pressure you one way or the other, but I do believe that feedback is important. In an individual's own style, things have to look right together. If something looks awkward in conjunction with something else, it kind of throws the work off, which seems to be the case here.

I don't think we're asking you to be a copycat artist here either. I know I'm certainly not asking that of you. Rather, sometimes to best learn how to make your own style, you have to examine the source of what you're stylizing. I do believe there is a way to "style" something wrong, and have it come out looking incorrect (just as examples, the neck length in the Maria-Sama ga Miteru anime and the overall limb length in xxxHolic). While yes, the audience can adjust to these in time, critics will still always point out the awkwardness of these things.

Lumaria · « **Reply #17 on:** August 06, 2016, 02:18:43 am »

Kesashi, the ultimate goal is to refine your work. But if you are intentionally going for half-baked moe and half-baked something else, its not going to work well.

HematoLogMeIn is right. It looks awkward. I've told you years to choose a style and work from there but to avoid moe like a plague. You chose moe...but you chose that as the basis when moe itself is not a basis to start with.

I don't know though. It's been years and I'm almost convinced deep down you want to troll with us. That you're secretly trying to prove some point but string us along by saying you do want to improve. I don't think I can or anyone in the world can help you unless you truly open up to other ideas outside your head. There are clear paths to improvement and you deny them all because you think you're at that level where you know how to achieve/master style.

Why Moe is the plague

When has there been a good anime or manga that was moe (which is significantly different from chibi)? Moe's ultimate goal is to be cute and see them do cute things. That's why they're designed the way they are. The "good moe" isn't known for great characters, great story or anything like that. They're known for cute fun designs.

But what happens when you try moe and try to add a real story? Hell Girl manga was one of the most awkward things to read. See how serious and yet difficult to appreciate the moe design?

This image gives me the same feeling when I see such an awkward design "choice". Kesashi, you don't know what moe is. You don't know what it means to create your own style. First off, it has to come naturally. Whatever this is, it's not natural, you know how to use outlines, you know how to pencil, so choosing awkward measurements to resemble moe is a choice, not a natural style.

You first have to explore all forms. Find what feels right and what feels most natural and what sparks your creativity. But why Kesashi? Why do I get the feeling all you want to do is just fight conventions and nothing more?

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #18 on:** August 06, 2016, 11:41:06 pm »

I...just, yikes. This is getting out of hand.

Look, Tara, for what it's worth, I see that there is progress over the years, and I also know what it's like to pour yourself into your work. I completely understand your anger at Lumaria's statements against you and your frustrations. I can say openly that I feel that she crossed a line in making a personal mark against you rather than keeping it strictly about your art.

Still, was that jab back at her own artwork really necessary? Someone can have perception of artistic value and not have the hand-eye coordination skills nor the practice to be able to create fine works themselves, and that doesn't devalue their critique (especially when they have about two people agreeing with them.)

I'm sitting here feeling like I should say something and I've tried writing this message about four different ways and I still can't get it out right. (Sighs heavily.) Please, won't the two of you take a chill pill?

Lumaria · « **Reply #19 on:** August 07, 2016, 12:47:24 am »

Here are the reasons why I believe what I believe about you, Kesashi. You can be mad, but in the end of the day. I feel like I humor you too long. So I'm now going to be upfront.

#1) You avoid basic, simple questions like a plague. Questions that help us help you better. You twist the question in your head so far that you claim you can't answer it, it's impossible.

#2) Everything that doesnt work is because of a conscious choice. It's not like "I didn't mean to do this that makes it look awkward." Or "I didn't realize I wasn't adding this." When you say things like style and such. You make it look like you have a basic understanding of art. Even in your stories, there's confusions, there's lack of though. Which leads me to...

#3) You've blatantly lied. There were times when you said one thing and then say the complete opposite. Example: you've made a big point saying FNO isnt trying to be manga. And then you say things like I want Tara because I wanted to make a Manga with a black female protagonist because it's never been done.

#4) You try to classify me as a type or say something that makes it all seem like I'm just one of the masses. But you also constantly put yourself in a situation. For example you mentioned multiple times about the problem of "impressing" me. Honestly I get impressed by improvement in general. It doesn't take a lot to impress me.

So I'm tired of going through the motions with you. For the record,I don't share my art. I'm conscious about it but I look at it and I try my absolute best. Not a good artist?

Because I don't color with color pencils and that's all you do? I'm focused on an entirely different area. I don't complain about your coloring. It's great coloring. But I see a lot of bad proportions. And at this point it's intentional.

But I definitely haven't shown all my art. I work very hard on other things. I'm also actually making a living.

And agin. I don't care that you're mad. Actually the only time when you are fully sincere is when you're mad. Any other time, it's going through the motions and just laying it out.

So I rather stay angry forever if that means hitting the heart of the problem. I don't think you are a complete troll (at least to your art) but to me and maybe others? I don't think at this point someone said anything to you that you fully taken in and learned from it. At least at this point. Everytime I'm about to leave for good, you give me the humble act and then suddenly try to change the situation, but when I decide to give you another chance, its the same vague process that takes forever to move from.

Lumaria · « **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2016, 10:52:10 am »

Quote from: Tara on August 07, 2016, 01:42:58 am

#1 If I do, I don't do it on purpose.

look back at everytime I asked you a question and you couldn't respond or refused to respond (there were times when you flat out ignore a question)

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#2 There's the instant assumption that it doesn't work. What I'm telling you is I'm in full control of the pictures I draw as to what they'll look like. I didn't just throw some pencils at a paper and end up with that. Everything is a conscious decision. In order to avoid what you say doesn't work in the next picture I would need a reason to believe it doesn't work and then I would consciously avoid it. You're skipping that step and assuming what you see that "doesn't work" is an accident.

No assumption. You did and it hasn't worked.
Dark hair, purple girl picture. Her moe proportions don't work at all. She looks like you're trying to aim for realism and not manga.

Every manga/anime style artwork you've ever done had that same issue with proportions, and they were always moe-like. Not full moe, but moe-like. Your characters had childlike proportions even though they had aspects of adults. It's like looking at SAO fan art before it existed.

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3# That wasn't a lie. That was me not knowing what FNO was. I'm sorry I didn't document every time I changed my mind on anything over the past few years I've been working on FNO. My brain doesn't produce logs like a computer program otherwise I'd post them for you. I said that FNO wasn't a manga meaning it wasn't hindered to anything that defines manga. Because the fact is I'm not going to japan, I'm not going to market it in japan, but many will perceive it as manga. I talked a lot about how crippling it is to not know what your story is.

My brain doesn't produce logs automatically either. But I at least let people know when I changed my mind when I already revealed too much about the old concept.

You have to at least remember what you told people so when you change your mind, it isn't a curve ball.

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4# The fact is, you read stories differently than most people do. You're more critical. And I consider you to be more knowledgeable of literature than me. For this reason, I don't consider myself someone who, while speaking from the heart, is going to impress with any literature of mine. That's why I said what I said about impressing you individually

Impressing me or anyone is showing improvement. I'm not asking you to feel your story.

And yes, I am critical. But trust me I don't need to be to tell you what needs work. And others point it out.

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It's not that cyclical. Honestly. You're just being dramatic. If you want change, don't just tell me where change ought to happen. Tell me how and why.

I have. But Kesashi after so many years of humoring allowing you to brush off the most important critique (and yet still act like you want it when I'm about to leave) I'm tired. I see the same flaws, I give the same advice and then you try to do it again and then after 4 or 5 attempts you say you're listening but then I see you revert back and defend it.

I've explained why already. I can't explain how to fix it because there are dozens of ways to fix it.

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If I don't agree with your reason why, don't expect change to happen. Your reason why is always an attack.

I'm at the point where I know you know better. I know you can change and so do you. But it's no longer about actually improving anymore.

When you do try to defend something. It comes down to expressing yourself. That's the child's excuse. You can always express yourself even by trying something you may not agree with at first.

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You're so aggressive about it and the aggression starts with a misunderstanding and if I don't tackle the misunderstanding first, I'm walking into a meaningless argument. But I don't want to look at the deeper misunderstanding first because you're attacking me so I want to attack back.

like i said, I'm tired of humoring you. It's not even Kesashi. You're not 100% honest. I'm tired of the vicious cycle, and I refuse to be part of the cycle you created. Something has to give.

If you were 100%, tried it out and then proven to me that it didn't work for you. Then we can move forward. But I don't want this horrible cycle.

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2016, 05:41:06 pm »

Quote from: Tara on August 07, 2016, 01:35:39 pm

My old artwork looked nothing like moe.

Just sayin, both the before and after picture you have there look pretty moe to me. Big eyes, small mouth, small nose. If you're trying to say that your style isn't moe, why give us an example in which:

Quote from: Tara on August 07, 2016, 01:35:39 pm

The redraw uses techniques from that moe guide

I mean, seriously? "MY ART ISN'T MOE! LOOK AT THIS I DREW WITH A MOE GUIDE!" Um, what?

I grant that your purple haired (and pink haired) girl are considerably less moe, but the eyes kind of remind me of BRATZ dolls with slightly less puffy lips. To be fair, that is an American style (and didn't you say you used two American resources on the purple haired girl at least?), and moe isn't exactly the right word for it, but there are similarities between that style and moe except that American style doesn't exactly have a name, although it's used for things like BRATZ and Monster High, which brings us back around to the discussion at hand. Even within those Americanized styles, let me pull up an example (I believe this is a DeviantArt image by one Thuddleston. I hope they'll forgive me by way of fair use for the purpose of teaching) :

Now watch as I illustrate why I made my earlier point:

Quote from: HematoLogMeIn on August 05, 2016, 12:53:20 am

Try sketching a basic full front head and face in your style, and then next to it, draw the same head shape, but instead make the middle of the eyes align with the dead center of the face and compare the results.

The yellow lines represent the top, bottom, and center of the head (note that the hair is somewhat volumous in the back, hence I chose where the top of the head should be, accounting for that hair takes up space.) I even added crossbars to ensure that my center line fell on the midway point between the top/bottom lines. As we can see:

" I divide the face into 2. In the proportions used for the real face the tip of eyebrows begins at the tip of the middle section. In the proportions I use, the tip of the eyes begins at the tip of the of the bottom section."

It's quite similar to this, but the tip of the eyebrows do not begin at the tip of the middle section (although you did never answer my question: "But, wait, if you're dividing into halves, how is there a "middle" section? Unless you're talking about the center line?" so, I can't be sure.) Looking back, you were likely referring to the vertical "thirds" or "fifths" of a face, except as you can see in this example, those were not the vertical proportions used to achieve this style. This proves that you blend realism with something that isn't.

In either case, this...let's call it Ameri-Moe style still receives plenty of criticism for being very anatomically impossible, but it's designed and stylized to appeal to kids, which brings us back around to the point of "wait, I thought you wanted a mature story?" from Lumaria's argument. These kind of proportions for an adult simply do not work. They make them look like a young teenager at best. If "young teenager" is what you're going for, by all means, go ahead and use this style. It works for that. The problem is that it seemed like somewhere Lumaria seemed to be going on the assumption that purple-hair was supposed to be an adult and you never denied that and so the assumption continues. Hence why she made her original statement regarding realism, which you declined because "style". (Starting to see the cycle now?)

She has a point in that you parry off any kind of criticism because "but muh style". A glaringly obvious point. Again, I'm all for style and self-expression, but it's about balancing and making sure that things go together. Your realistic coloring style does indeed look very awkward with this current style. Realistic coloring + unrealistic proportions = wtf? If you went for flat color or cel-shading style, it probably wouldn't have been received as "awkward". But, you know, it doesn't look awkward to you, and yet if three people telling you otherwise gets the reply of "but muh style", it doesn't fix the problem.

I resign to that you're going to do what you want, and I'm fine with that. You do art for you, not for us. I accept that. However, not all art is this subjective thing, and some things can be objective, and when receiving critique, looking at the critique through your eyes and not the eyes of the critic helps nothing. Ask yourself "why did they say that?" See, the point is to get you looking at it in more than one way, because if you keep looking at it one way, progress will be extremely slow. Trust me; I speak from experience as an artist in that regard. Sometimes things just don't work. You can only learn anything once you accept that there is much that you don't know. You can't just learn what's convenient to you; you also must learn things you don't want to, because they'll improve your work overall. That does not mean copying other styles. That means learning principles, concepts, and applications of those things. That's all we've been asking, and you've failed to recognize that, which is why this wildfire of a discussion keeps raging.

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #22 on:** August 07, 2016, 06:43:32 pm »

Quote from: Tara on August 07, 2016, 06:26:56 pm

Imagine if I were a software engineer and Loren told me I don't know what a computer program is, while she doesn't even know what hexadecimal is.

I agree with that what she said was a little out of line, but this analogy isn't accurate to the situation. It'd be more akin to that you're a software engineer, she tries your program, and says "hey, this doesn't work". She doesn't have to know the exact coding error. What matters is that there's a bug.

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #23 on:** August 07, 2016, 07:59:58 pm »

(Goes to look up Black Fenrir)

Ah, okay. I'm starting to get a lot more of what you mean. I'd still say your proportions might need a little more tweaking to work, but then again, some of this artist's work, although stylized, still looks "wrong" to me in some areas. Some of them are gorgeous, don't get me wrong, but there's a stray work here and there where the forehead is far too massive or the jawline is ridiculously thin and the cheek has all but disappeared.

Again, though, it appears that the illustrator studied a lot from life before stylizing it as far as they have. I can't possibly imagine that they just picked up a pencil and started working a bit in that style and magically got it without drawing from life first to gain an artistic sense of "why" things fall where they do. As you said, you feel that art is about the cognative, and how better to understand the cognative than to study that which you are stylizing so that when you stylize it, it comes out looking stylized instead of wonky.

Lumaria · « **Reply #24 on:** August 08, 2016, 12:46:41 am »

Quote from: Tara on August 07, 2016, 06:26:56 pm

It's one thing to have a perception of art, it's another thing to have people agree with you, but all she's doing is attacking me. "You don't know what it means to create your own style."

When you dodge an issue with "My style" That's where things go bad. When you scoff perfectly valid advise, things go bad. And it doesn't even have to be "my" advice.

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You what that kind of statement says. Shut up child, you don't know what you're talking about. Don't act like this is something you take seriously or intend to make a profession out of. You haven't studied, practiced and invested anything into this. I don't even need to be a great artist to tell you how badly you're in over your head. I don't even know your real name, but I know more about you than you do from a few pictures you've shown me.

You're absolutely crazy if you think the earlier statement means that. Ive never called you a child. But there are times when you do act like one.

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I have my own philosophies of what makes quality art. For instance I showed the huge time bracket between my 5th grade artwork and 2013 artwork and the minimal improvement in illustration skill. But then we talk about 2013-2014 and it's like a whole different person drew it. My art wasn't just criticized when I came to MR, I was also taught illustration theory. The fact is I practiced religiously from when I first began drawing until I came there, but practice isn't what makes great art, it's a difference in thinking. Sometimes in practice we see slow improvements in thinking that cause us to create more precise art, but art theory skips the trial and error we find in practice and gives us the boost we need. Things like proportions, we could've found on our own by studying people for years or we could ask google and save time.

I agree that practice doesn't equal improvement. Someone can be doing the same thing over and over. So something needs to change in terms of improvement. Studying and research and doing references is actually expected if you want to improve.

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Psychologists have even studied the changes in art skill in children as they grow older. I'm sure it has everything to do with their cognitive ability. Think about how long people have been drawing before one point perspective was invented according to historians. It wasn't that people couldn't draw the illusion of one point perspective, they just didn't know about it. Just like a camera uses math to create pictures of the real world, art can be brought down to a science. You wouldn't tell an aspiring engineer, you just have to practice. You would tell him, you need to go to school and you need to learn how to engineer whatever it is you're engineering.

But let's say you're trying to invent something. That's a more fitting analogy here. There's function, there's practicality.

Does it function? If I tell you it doesn't, you'll just get mad and scoff everything off. It's not about my pride being compromised, its about yours.

What gets me mad isn't just that you don't listen. That it's this vicious cycle of giving you the benefit of the doubt and you always have this desire to feel like you're ahead of the game. And once I give it, there's this obstacle between you and your mind. for some reason you act like we're making progress but how fast are you to hitting that reset button?

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Imagine if I were a software engineer and Loren told me I don't know what a computer program is, while she doesn't even know what hexadecimal is.

Back to the invention analogy. invention or lack of function despite everything that you added into the design of your invention being "intentional". Let's say you have a secret to this beautiful purpose but so much of the flaws get in the way of seeing it.

You should be forthcoming in what you want to achieve not just that what you did was "intentional" so we can give a better responce.

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Me being more skilled at illustration shows superior thought process for illustration.

That isn't sound logic at all.

First of all, I haven't drawn in a while, that much is true. I do however look at art everyday and see what they wanted ti achieve, what methods rhey used, so on and so forth.

For my art, I focus on the shape and form of my characters. But keep in mind I'm also fully aware of my flaws in terms of visual art, more than others are aware of. I refuse to do color something in by hand because it masks the flaws. But also because I don't aim for that.

You are a great colorist. Are you a better "illustrator". Hipocritical at its finest. Because you made a big deal about art not being objective unless comissioned.

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The fact is Loren is taking a position as the superior mind and her superiority is the only evidence for my inferiority. And it's rough for her because I'm just not convinced. I do consider myself an authority on art and art theory. But I don't consider myself an authority because of my own understanding, I consider myself that because of the people I have behind me. In the same manner she has you and other members agreeing with her. I have people like E.H. Gombrich and Leonardo da Vinci agreeing with me. Rather, that I agree with them.

I don't consider myself an authority because other people agree with me. They're just stating what they see as I can only state what I see. I had teachers who were very strict on the things I wanted to achieve, I have a passion as much as you do believe it or not. I had to train my eye and I still do. Problem is I have a bigger life than I would like to share here.but I don't need my hands to prove I have a trained eye.

But here's the difference. To you this is pride. I have my pride, you have yours. You want to know why I see you as a child now than ever before? Because when I do actually treat you like an adult and give you sound advice (that anyone can give you. It's not primo grade-A secret methods) You instigate. You give such a bland casual "I don't care" responce.

And you always defend something with a theory or odd interpretation. And then at the last possible moment, you pull out. You act humble and say you are ready for feedback. And then when we give it another try, its the same thing all over again. That is the cycle. I don't create the cycle. You do.

Quote from: Tara on August 07, 2016, 01:35:39 pm

Please explain to me first why I need to prove anything to you. You've made it very clear you don't care about me. You don't care how I feel. Who are you?

Because you look like the most stubborn artist on the face of the earth. And it's not about proving it to "me". Prove it to others and yourself.

In what way should I care about you? I don't want anything bad to happen to you. I definitely want you to succeed in life including art as a profession. In fact i would leave right here and now if I truly didn't care about you in that aspect.

Do you want me to care for you as a friend? As an equal? My trust in you has been compromised for either. And deservingly so. Ive given you so much benefit of the doubt, more than anyone else. Your child-like responses come from you. So if you want me to change my mind about these things (which an adult would definitely be able to do) then maybe give more mature responces, maybe be fully honest. Because it's not a judging contest.

Note that I'm not asking you to agree with me, do as I say or anything like that? Oh, and if the 1% chance you think about saying something like "I don't need to prove anything to you!" That enforces even more child like behavior. But here I go again saying 1% when we both know it's higher.

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The characters that I drew in the old days were just about as young as you say they appear. I was interested in drawing children at that time so I studied ways to make them look younger. The purple girl, Tamera, was not drawn using any moe proportions. It was drawn using proportions taught to me by a fashion designer I picked up from a time when I was interested in fashion design.

And why do I remember a completely different tune from what you were saying before. You didn't say any of this when it mattered most.

Remember when I said "If you want to achieve more mature style than you should make the proportions more realistic". You didn't say "in this one case, I was taking advise from a fashion artist and that's why she looks like this".

Back in MR (specifically in Sentieria days), you had characters with profiles with their age. You had some of these characters with full on abs and giant weapons like a typical Shonen only with the problem of looking incredibly moe (like Sword Art Online) including some with facial hair. And an interest in drawing manga/anime children and making them younger is indeed moe. A lot of moe characters are children or act like one.

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This is a picture I posted to MR a long time ago showing improvement. This was a child character I designed where the name "Kesashi" comes from. My old artwork looked nothing like moe. The redraw uses techniques from that moe guide, and it was actually drawn on top of the body of a real child.

I'm not insisting that because it was traced over a child that it was done correctly, but moe is not the source of whatever you see as a weakness in my art.

And yet...why do I see moe proportions even outside of the comparison given. Why haven't I seen you draw a full-fledged teenager or adult with teen/adult proportions? Dark hair purple girl is nice, still child like though. the Catholic-like drawing of a mother and child is close, but that one in particular looks like a one-off. You haven't shown anyone here.

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I'm not fighting that the picture doesn't look awkward to you. It may look that way. I want you to tell me it looks awkward. Please tell me you don't like it. I don't want everyone telling me my art is amazing and then my employer tells me it's awkward, and then I'm fired. I'd rather everyone tell me it's awkward and my employer loves it. But he loves it because everyone else opened my eyes.

we wouldn't be in this situation if that's what you really wanted.

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What I don't want you to tell me is that I'm not an artist. That I haven't been doing this my whole life. And that I don't take this seriously. This is not the time to psychoanalyze me and demean me. There's a time for that. But not here.

No one is saying that. You are free to interpret it that way. Remember, I'll interpret you however YOU want me to. If you give me child like responces, I'll definitely see that as invitation to see you as a child.

But no, no one is saying that. I definitely think you were trolling me. I definitely think you disagreed for defying conventions and only for that. I think you want to challenge all conventions, and all forms.You remain unconvinced for the most basic things. You're thought process has been compromised at least when it comes to reading a perfectly valid piece of advice from me.

I'm not sorry for making you mad. I hope you stay mad if it makes you honest about your art, what your intentions and further. Because you just proven here how you could've been more honest about your intentions and goals but had to have a blowout first to get there.

Lumaria · « **Reply #25 on:** August 09, 2016, 01:38:56 am »

Quote from: Lumaria on July 30, 2016, 11:06:00 pm

This is an issue for a while where you generalized manga to have low and puffy cheeks. You originally gave your characters an appearance of toddlers. You haven't posted much since.

I recommend looking at manga such as Akumetsu and Gantz (the later chapters).

If you're going for a sense of realism, and a more mature style than definitely make the facial proportions right (and make sure the face is also proportioned to their body. No toddler face, adolescent bodies)

Here I'm telling you your artwork has always had a chibi and moe style from the beginning. That opinion hasn't change at all. I still see very moe/chibi like features in most of your art. Anything that doesnt feel moe is usually something not even in the same realm of drawing anime or manga (like the Catholic-like mother/child)

Quote from: Tara on August 02, 2016, 02:40:25 pm

Generalized? I knew there were other styles, but I chose to draw that style. Incidentally, I don't draw much these days.

Not giving a clear idea. Also oversimplistic. Youre giving me the isea that you chose a style, not that you were developing it. But not the problem.

Quote from: Lumaria on August 02, 2016, 05:42:16 pm

Yes but you don't have a good grasp. You're mixing a very broad common interpretation of Manga style and it just doesn't work all the way.

If you want to aim for a mature and closer look, then you have to get the proportions closer to reality. I agree the eyes are way too low and digging into the cheeks. If maybe a more simplistic design, I might not say much.

But you've always had this overly chili design.

You know why I said this right? You have a very still piece of art. Like HematoLogMeIn stated, your colors give a sense of aiming for realistic design and yet the proportions just don't fit with the way you colored it.

Again, all we have to base the digging into the he eyes is because you said it was to resemble anime

Quote from: Tara on August 03, 2016, 11:09:31 am

If my ultimate goal is ever to copy the styles of another artist, then I assure you, I will do just that.

Here's where the childish act comes in. You simply chose to interpret the information that way, refuse to clarify what you meant and let the chips where they lie. I obviously didn't say "copy Gantz or Akumetsu". I'm saying take a look and see if you are willing to invest in how they draw cheeks or facial proportions.

But I was still giving you the benefit of the doubt so...[color]

Quote from: Lumaria on August 03, 2016, 11:58:01 pm

Let me show you what I'm trying to tell you:
Quote from: Tara on July 30, 2016, 10:10:27 pm
Quote from: Crackhead Johny on July 30, 2016, 12:12:16 am
Your eyes are low.. That never happens.
Low? Are you referring to the fact that they're taking space away from the cheeks. The foundation was stylized, so I know her eyes are digging into her cheeks. I've used similar proportions for anime facial features.

The facial features you are using that you claim is similar to anime works because it's a heavily simplified, going for a more chili or Shonen style.

You have something far different than the typical shonen. And this "style" that you have been doing over the years shows that you make a character that looks like a toddler. Which is why I'm suggesting to you: if you aim for a mature style, then getting the proportions closer to reality is important.

Here I'm trying to explain to you that it's not about changing a style nor to adopt a new one. I'm treating you like an adult despite my instincts telling me you want to act out.But once again...giving you another chance

Here you are fully admitting that the eyes are "digging" into the cheeks and try to support it and made to resemble anime. I'm not making this up, it's in quotes and you don't clarify at all until it's too late. But let's look at when you do.

Quote from: Tara on August 04, 2016, 10:41:05 am

Loren, I understand exactly what you're saying. You don't have to repeat yourself.

Yet again, you are making this more difficult than necessary. Every opportunity to clarify what you meant. But here you're scoffing off the advise and not giving a proper responce. It has absolutely nothing to do whether you're going to do the advice I given. You are just making things harder.

Quote from: Tara on August 04, 2016, 07:08:39 pm

It has everything to do with it.

You want me to adopt this new style, but adopting a new style is not my goal at this point in time.

You're sentence structure is insisting I'm forcing a specific style to you. Know that I'm not, I'm only saying that "if you want a more mature" style, than its in your best interest to keep the proportions "closer" to reality.

And the fact that is all we're talking about, enforces the idea that you really on proportions to define your style. But we'll get to that.

Quote from: Lumaria on August 04, 2016, 07:30:37 pm

No you did not understood what I'm saying. I'm saying your style is inconsistent and doesn't work well.

You're adopting a certain aspect(or feature) that most manga use and putting it with your own that doesn't work. We're telling you it's not working. I never said "adopt an entirely new style".

Can you understand that you have an inconsistent style based on a conscious choice to intentionally bury the eyes in the cheeks just because you believe that is associated with manga and anime?

You have to look at why they did that first before taking it. For example, is it really that the eyes dig into the cheeks or is it something else that seems like it to your perspective?

Again based entirely on what you have given so far. You're not doing yourself any favors here. I'm going by what you've said.

Quote from: Tara on August 05, 2016, 12:11:11 pm

I don't want you to get the impression that the image is not meant to look this way. It is. The problem is not any amount of skill I don't have, the problem is lumaria is underestimating me, because she thinks of me like a child. What I'm saying is: it's not my job to prove anything to her.

And my suspicions of a child have grown from 10 to a 100 from here. It is right here Kesashi when you have proven NOT to be honest. And in my eyes, not being forthcoming is the same thing about not being honest. Sure you're happy to clarify anything in the long run but you're smart enough to know when a misunderstanding is building and its this right here.

At this point you are allowing the miscommunication. You could've cleared things up long before it got messy. But in this comment you are fully admitting spite. And it does me no harm, but you make yourself out to be a stubborn mule.

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I want to approach this misconception that I don't know what real people look like.

Not once in this entire issue did I anyone suggest you don't know what a real people look like.

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Spoiler (hover to show)

We could say these are the proportions I could use if i wanted to draw a real person exactly as real people look without referencing the image of a real person. If I were going to draw a real person I would have a picture of a real person to draw by, and I would take measurements more accurately in order to capture the likeness.

The proportions I use are similar to these about exactly the same on the vertical lines, but instead of dividing the face into 3 sections, I divide the face into 2. In the proportions used for the real face the tip of eyebrows begins at the tip of the middle section. In the proportions I use, the tip of the eyes begins at the tip of the of the bottom section. So right under the divide line, the eyes begin. These proportions were taught to me by an American fashion design guide book. I was also taught by Irene Flores that when you want to make the eyes bigger, you take space from the cheeks instead of the forehead.

The techniques I used to draw the daughter come from this japanese guide book.

Spoiler (hover to show)

It's called more character or something in japanese. The artist brings Moe down to a science.

This is where you finally trying to prove something...that you are capable of explaining your art. And what ticks me off the most? It's all spite.

But let's look at the rest of your comments. Now you want to prove your intellect aswell. You bring up big names of people who you're behind but you also bring new ideas that come into play. You talk about the changes of style. We all have multiple styles that people define as there own. I dare say that people adopt multiple styles and use those styles as a group to. But you make it a battlefield over simple proportions. HematoLogMeIn is right when you don't ask enough about why were saying what we're saying.

Your earlier comment intentionally twist things around. I can fill an entire page of how many childlike things you've said. But ultimately everytime you sarcastically , scoff everything off. Admitting that you are stubborn by saying you don't want to prove anything to me when it should be be about that at all.

When you talk about how the artwork changes and it's not out of practice and how different your art looks. You've referenced the same aspect and now give a more detailed explanation, and it's nowhere near the connection to what you said before.

I'm very familiar with Irene Flores' work aswell. But I've never seen her art push the eyes down to the cheeks, even on her Shojo manga books. Maybe she advised that because thats her method of transitioning from western comic book to her shojo-esque style (i dont hate her work, but you have to admit, even her shojo stuff looks pretty western).

But now there's a second influence down the road. And it's Black Fenrir. Which again familiar with his work. I post "love" reaction on his work. But there are two different spectrums. And it has other variables outside of just proportions.

HematoLogMeIn · « **Reply #26 on:** August 09, 2016, 12:55:49 pm »

Quote from: Tara on August 09, 2016, 12:32:23 pm

We're both children here.

Thank God I didn't have to say it.

I do agree that there should be more listening and less fighting, on both of your parts. This boils down to semantics. Neither one of you likes the way the other addresses the conversation, and miscommunication sparks all sorts of nastiness. It's like the two of you can't bring yourselves to get on the same page. It's weird to watch.

Lumaria · « **Reply #27 on:** August 09, 2016, 10:32:02 pm »

Quote from: Tara on August 09, 2016, 12:32:23 pm

Treating me like a child came first. See you assumed I don't know how other mangaka draw facial features. Can you agree with that? Is that a reasonable conclusion from your words?

No. That is absolutely NOT a reasonable conclusion at all. I didn't say "look at these because you have no idea what manga artist look like."

Referencing other people's work to take inspiration and allowing you to look at it and take whatever you want from it is NOT saying that you're not aware of other artstyles.

In fact i chose mangas that would work with the realistic features and see what they're adding in that you would like to look into.

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If I knew I wouldn't have to study right? Let's take this slow. I was inspired to become an illustrator by my brother who was inspired by dragon ball z to start drawing. He's not an illustrator now, but I want you to know I have seen styles other than moe. Moe is not the central style of my art. I have studied the structure of the art of other mangaka.

I'm aware of everything you are saying. And all I can say is that I see moe in almost all your work, most work intended to be manga style.

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This suggestion. Go study other manga artist. This assumes I haven't. Doesn't it?

I'm only recommending specific manga because I thought it would benefit you in otherways. I trust you to see other things other than "how they draw cheeks" that if you liked it, you would look into it further.

In fact, I trust you have the capabilities of looking at others works and get inspired on your own and be able to achieve what you are inspired to. But it's impossible to know that you were already aware of those manga.

And I say that merely because I run into veteran manga fans who love manga for years, and some of them still don't know about Gantz or Akumetsu. So I don't know why it's so offensive to recommend 'looking into" these to see if you would get inspired by them.

I don't think even a professional artist would've taken it that hard unless I said "look at sonic x" or "look at every Saturday morning cartoon". Now that would be intentionally trying to insult you. That would really be me looking down on you.

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Instead of saying you should just raise up the eyes you said go study artists. This is tell me, I have a lack of control, I don't know how to fix it, but this manga artist knows.

i wouldve given you any book written by Mark Crilley if I thought that. And that's a bigger insult than you realize.

I recommended specific manga so you can look into it and see what shape they chose and see if you like it and then make your own. I didnt say that follow a specific manga artist because they're better than you or because they know control.

Additionally, I didn't say it blunty because i didnt believe just making the eyes higher would be positive outcome if that is the only change.it could negatively impact it if you change only that and the cheeks still not look right.

I recommended to look into the other Mangas such as Gantz and Akumetsu. Why? Those mangas focus on more realistic proportions and also having strong manga features. I'm not saying do what they do exactly as they did it. But if you see anything you would like to take from them, then go ahead. It could've been eyes, chin, cheeks. Etc. You are free to take anything you want. Whatever you like about them that you think would work with your style.

I wasn't saying "look into these because they are the gateway to masterpiece of art and yours suck".

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You're saying that if I knew better, I wouldn't draw this way. Can we agree that's what you're saying? If I knew better. If only I knew better. If that's not what you're saying I think you should give up on english. I don't think it's for you.

Honestly, any advice would've sounded like that. There is no way anyone can give you advice where it wouldnt sound like that.

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I know it isn't a weakness. But you don't know that. I tell you it's not a weakness but you're not convinced. So my only option would be to draw something that is appealing to you to prove to you that I can right?

Not something "appealing" but something more consistent and apparent in what you're trying to achieve? But I can't choose for you, I can only recommend others work and then if you like it, make your own decisions after that.

It's half realistic, half anime. And it's so split evenly that both don't compliment eachother. So trying to refine that particular artstyles that you "intended", I can't help (no one can). You're right. But I can at least see what you value most.

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If I had more time to draw, I would. But I don't have to prove anything to you. So why waste me time. I'm at a point where drawing is so taxing I'd rather not do it for those who won't appreciate it.

Again, what would happen even if I said "move the eyes higher". It wouldn't have changed the message you perceived. I know you have a grasp of realism. I know you have some grasp on anime aswell. But I've never seen you actually draw a well proportioned anime character and not resembling moe.

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If you want me to put it bluntly. I don't need your help. I'm a step ahead of you. I'm waiting for you to catch up. That's why I "scoff it off". Your advice is nothing I don't already know.

I've shared a piece of artwork maybe a couple years ago?Not the perfect proportions or perspective for its time. But still solid enough all across the board. No denying that. But you don't need the perfect hands to have a good eye.

I strongly prefer aged paper and newsprint paper when it comes to drawing. My art teacher gave me a special and expensive sketchbook. but after school, haven't been able to find it since. I don't want to color with color pencils. I have and I did. I also am in a severely tight budget.

You have amazing coloring skills. No denying that. You are good at making things look realistic at times (more recently) no denying that. Drawing anime or manga style that looks like without moe proportions?

Here's how the argument would've gone:

Me:It looks so split between. It's not working.

You: I fully intended to make it look like that.

Me: Yes, but it's not working, it looks awkward. I recommend choosing over the other or one more and the other less.

You: I can express myself however I feel. If I wanted to change my style I would. The only objective art is commissioned work, so this is all subjective.

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Loren, I've never seen you say you're sorry when you're clearly wrong. I say I'm sorry all the time. I'm not perfect. I suppose you'll never need to say it if you're never wrong. You must be Jesus Christ. I've been drawing the wrong image this whole time.

I cleared this up more than enough for you. Long before it was a problem. I clarified as much as I possibly could. You knew what you were doing, what you were hiding. And you intended this. Don't lie.

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I'm not supporting anything. I'm simply stating that I didn't throw a bunch of pencils at a paper to create art. It was on purpose. Because I have control over what ends up on the paper. Is that construct foreign to you? Define support. Does comparing it to anime mean it looks good? That you don't have the right to call it awkward?

Yes, fully aware it was intentional. You fully intended to do it. You said it long before it was an issue. However, your work always looks moe. I can't stress this enough. And not in a "it works" kind of way.

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"I've used the same. . ." I've done this before. This is too practiced to be an accident
Webster needs to make a connotation dictionary for you.

Sarcastic comment aside...

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I did concede however, that you're allowed to claim whatever you felt as childish as childish. So I apologize. That's all that can be said. I'm sorry I said it that way.

I don't want to fake apology. I don't even want an apology in general. All I ever wanted was you to be upfront with everything. Because this game you're playing, isn't working.

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We're both children here. You talked about this argument like I was supposed to prevent it, but you're the aggressor. Why didn't you just stop if you didn't want it to happen? Why aren't you stopping now. What ifs right? They don't help anybody.

I'm the aggressor because of a misunderstanding. You went on a full tangent with what you believed. Even after countless times of trying to clarify.

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I would have made things clearer if I knew how lowly you thought of me. I forgot some illustrate by accident and they can't fix their mistakes on their own. My coloring is an accident, that's true. I'm not very skilled with it.

I think you're absolutely insane. Or you're very good at acting insane. Or you have a very very very delicate ego. Because you don't listen at anything at all. In fact you make these things up as we discuss and you mix words around. No one is saying the things you are claiming. Stop listening to the voices in your head.

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Why don't why just stop fighting? I invented that idea in the FNO thread, but I actually enforced it there.

Sure. Provide a piece when you feel like it. I'll share my opinion. See where it goes.

Lumaria · « **Reply #28 on:** August 09, 2016, 11:48:18 pm »

For what its worth. I am sorry now, especially now that we can hear eachother out. I don't want you to think that I believe you don't know how to draw. Because you do.

I think books are only intended to draw foundation of certain styles. I don't think they can teach you about creating your own style. Its all trial and error. You need alot of other things to work on style.

Whatever your eye captures. But since you mentioned Black Fenrir. I do want to say Black Fenrir is a great artist (in my opinion) because he highlights features from African American women. The lips, the forehead, the hairstyle that African American women are Known for (and I'm also familiar with his sketches too) he makes those areas more apparent rather than making them subtle. Which I personally believe why his stylized proportions work.

So just so I can understand what you want to achieve, what do you want to express most? Because if you let me know, I can see it.

Lumaria · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2016, 04:52:26 am »

The hand/finger size has always made them look more on the dolls idea than youthful. I do believe there is ways to make them look reasonably within their age range and still feel youthful.

But I guess maybe the color scheme for new Tara is slightly better, her outfit seems very close to the original design.

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